Community
Wiki Posts
Search

TSA and Their Drills

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Feb 8, 2017, 11:43 pm
  #16  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by Section 107
You are right that in a criminal matter, depending upon the circumstances of the search, there might be issues regarding the admissibility of the results of a search without a warrant.

But there are no such issues regarding the kind of search under discussion here. In addition, there are agreements between the airport operator and the TSA and there is the appropriate signage informing all persons of the condition of being subject to search.
Are you suggestion the signage covers TSA searching office space leased by an airline at any particular airport.
notag is offline  
Old Feb 9, 2017, 1:19 pm
  #17  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: WAS
Programs: enjoyed being warm spit for a few years on CO/UA but now nothing :(
Posts: 2,507
Originally Posted by notag
Are you suggestion the signage covers TSA searching office space leased by an airline at any particular airport.


I am not making a suggestion. I am stating that depending upon the facts of the situation, yes, TSA may search the spaces leased by a tenant.



More than 400 airports in the country fall under the supervision and regulation of the TSA. The Aviation and Transportation Security Act and its implementing code and regulations give TSA, and DHS for that matter, very broad authority to safeguard aviation, including searching any location pretty much anywhere, but especially anywhere on an airport under their supervision. FAMs, for example, have authority to enter anywhere when performing their duties (next time you see a FAM ask to see his/her credentials and read the everything printed on them - not much different from an NTSB inspector).
Section 107 is offline  
Old Feb 9, 2017, 1:27 pm
  #18  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: WAS
Programs: enjoyed being warm spit for a few years on CO/UA but now nothing :(
Posts: 2,507
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
Without a warrant?

edit to add:

I question the authority of TSA to do any kind of screening, detention, or interrogation of any person who is not trying to gain access to the sterile portion of an airport.
If anyone wishes to post the Federal Code that allows TSA such actions I would appreciate it.
Google is your friend and see my response to NoTag re: signage and searches.


49 U.S. Code § 114 - Transportation Security Administration

(d) Functions.—The Under Secretary shall be responsible for security in all modes of transportation, including—
(1) carrying out chapter 449, relating to civil aviation security, and related research and development activities; and

(2) security responsibilities over other modes of transportation that are exercised by the Department of Transportation.

(e) Screening Operations.—The Under Secretary shall—
(1) be responsible for day-to-day Federal security screening operations for passenger air transportation and intrastate air transportation under sections 44901 and 44935;

(2) develop standards for the hiring and retention of security screening personnel;

(3) train and test security screening personnel; and

(4) be responsible for hiring and training personnel to provide security screening at all airports in the United States where screening is required under section 44901, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation and the heads of other appropriate Federal agencies and departments.

(f) Additional Duties and Powers.—In addition to carrying out the functions specified in subsections (d) and (e), the Under Secretary shall—
(1) receive, assess, and distribute intelligence information related to transportation security;

(2) assess threats to transportation;

(3) develop policies, strategies, and plans for dealing with threats to transportation security;

(4) make other plans related to transportation security, including coordinating countermeasures with appropriate departments, agencies, and instrumentalities of the United States Government;

(5) serve as the primary liaison for transportation security to the intelligence and law enforcement communities;

(6) on a day-to-day basis, manage and provide operational guidance to the field security resources of the Administration, including Federal Security Managers as provided by section 44933;

(7) enforce security-related regulations and requirements;

(8) identify and undertake research and development activities necessary to enhance transportation security;

(9) inspect, maintain, and test security facilities, equipment, and systems;

(10) ensure the adequacy of security measures for the transportation of cargo;

(11) oversee the implementation, and ensure the adequacy, of security measures at airports and other transportation facilities;

(12) require background checks for airport security screening personnel, individuals with access to secure areas of airports, and other transportation security personnel;

(13) work in conjunction with the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration with respect to any actions or activities that may affect aviation safety or air carrier operations;

(14) work with the International Civil Aviation Organization and appropriate aeronautic authorities of foreign governments under section 44907 to address security concerns on passenger flights by foreign air carriers in foreign air transportation; and

(15) carry out such other duties, and exercise such other powers, relating to transportation security as the Under Secretary considers appropriate, to the extent authorized by law.
Section 107 is offline  
Old Feb 9, 2017, 3:04 pm
  #19  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,111
Originally Posted by Section 107
Google is your friend and see my response to NoTag re: signage and searches.


49 U.S. Code § 114 - Transportation Security Administration

(d) Functions.—The Under Secretary shall be responsible for security in all modes of transportation, including—
(1) carrying out chapter 449, relating to civil aviation security, and related research and development activities; and

(2) security responsibilities over other modes of transportation that are exercised by the Department of Transportation.

(e) Screening Operations.—The Under Secretary shall—
(1) be responsible for day-to-day Federal security screening operations for passenger air transportation and intrastate air transportation under sections 44901 and 44935;

(2) develop standards for the hiring and retention of security screening personnel;

(3) train and test security screening personnel; and

(4) be responsible for hiring and training personnel to provide security screening at all airports in the United States where screening is required under section 44901, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation and the heads of other appropriate Federal agencies and departments.

(f) Additional Duties and Powers.—In addition to carrying out the functions specified in subsections (d) and (e), the Under Secretary shall—
(1) receive, assess, and distribute intelligence information related to transportation security;

(2) assess threats to transportation;

(3) develop policies, strategies, and plans for dealing with threats to transportation security;

(4) make other plans related to transportation security, including coordinating countermeasures with appropriate departments, agencies, and instrumentalities of the United States Government;

(5) serve as the primary liaison for transportation security to the intelligence and law enforcement communities;

(6) on a day-to-day basis, manage and provide operational guidance to the field security resources of the Administration, including Federal Security Managers as provided by section 44933;

(7) enforce security-related regulations and requirements;

(8) identify and undertake research and development activities necessary to enhance transportation security;

(9) inspect, maintain, and test security facilities, equipment, and systems;

(10) ensure the adequacy of security measures for the transportation of cargo;

(11) oversee the implementation, and ensure the adequacy, of security measures at airports and other transportation facilities;

(12) require background checks for airport security screening personnel, individuals with access to secure areas of airports, and other transportation security personnel;

(13) work in conjunction with the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration with respect to any actions or activities that may affect aviation safety or air carrier operations;

(14) work with the International Civil Aviation Organization and appropriate aeronautic authorities of foreign governments under section 44907 to address security concerns on passenger flights by foreign air carriers in foreign air transportation; and

(15) carry out such other duties, and exercise such other powers, relating to transportation security as the Under Secretary considers appropriate, to the extent authorized by law.

Nothing in this states that a TSA screener can do any kind of action outside of the entrance to the sterile area. I agree that TSA can screen at will once a person presents or enters the sterile area.

Signage you speak of is at the checkpoint. Not out in the parking lots or non-sterile areas of the terminals.
Boggie Dog is online now  
Old Feb 10, 2017, 2:04 pm
  #20  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: WAS
Programs: enjoyed being warm spit for a few years on CO/UA but now nothing :(
Posts: 2,507
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
Nothing in this states that a TSA screener can do any kind of action outside of the entrance to the sterile area. I agree that TSA can screen at will once a person presents or enters the sterile area.

Signage you speak of is at the checkpoint. Not out in the parking lots or non-sterile areas of the terminals.
Well, that is not how the system works. Congress passes a law directing and authorizing an agency/someone to do (or not do) something. The relevant agency then promulgates regulations to implement the legislation within the context of its charge that is not specifically prohibited by Congress in the enabling legislation or by other law. the agency has very broad authority. The regulations do not have all the how/what details so the agency then creates policies to implement the regulations. And that is how the Under Secretary has broad authority to search pretty much wherever it wants at an airport (or other transportation facility under its purview).

And that is how your, or at least the US, government works.
Section 107 is offline  
Old Feb 10, 2017, 3:08 pm
  #21  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
Nothing in this states that a TSA screener can do any kind of action outside of the entrance to the sterile area. I agree that TSA can screen at will once a person presents or enters the sterile area.

Signage you speak of is at the checkpoint. Not out in the parking lots or non-sterile areas of the terminals.
Speaking of parking lots, wasn't TSA searching cars in parking lots at one time or sending other to search cars? Whatever became of that?
petaluma1 is offline  
Old Feb 10, 2017, 4:29 pm
  #22  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 8,956
Originally Posted by gsoltso
In the sterile areas, all persons are subject to search of their person(s) or items at any time. The signage is clearly posted at the entrances to all checkpoints and sterile areas (even if accessed by a non-public entrance).
Even if I am past the checkpoint and in the sterile area, unless I am presenting myself for boarding or you have at least a reasonable suspicion of a violation, you may not legally search me without my consent or a warrant. Read the CFR to see the language.

How many searches of persons have you done without their consent past the checkpoint and not part of the boarding process where you had no reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing?

Can you post a photo of that signage?
ND Sol is offline  
Old Feb 12, 2017, 6:17 pm
  #23  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Greensboro
Programs: TSA
Posts: 2,424
Originally Posted by HawaiiTrvlr
If the TSA were serious about looking for someone, they would have come to our front desk and said, "hey, we have reports that a possible breach. Here is what they are were seen last and were wearing." We were extremely slow that morning and I could have easily said if the person had tried to gain access to our area. I have no qualms really about them looking for someone, just their demeanor and the way they went about it. I have said it before and I will say it again. They truly lack any personality and my coworkers all agree that their search of our area was totally useless (since they didn't go to our back room where a person could have easily hid). At least the 2nd guy said it was a drill so I could stop being concerned and he could nonchalently continue on his halfa$$ search.

Thanks for your input though gsotso. I always look forward to your input.
^^
gsoltso is offline  
Old Feb 13, 2017, 10:20 am
  #24  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: WAS
Programs: enjoyed being warm spit for a few years on CO/UA but now nothing :(
Posts: 2,507
Originally Posted by ND Sol
Even if I am past the checkpoint and in the sterile area, unless I am presenting myself for boarding or you have at least a reasonable suspicion of a violation, you may not legally search me without my consent or a warrant. Read the CFR to see the language.?
Would you please post the actual CFR or at least cite the section you are referring to?

Because 49 CFR Ch 11 Part 1542, gives no such limitations.

it is very important to remember that at an airport a security inspection is an administrative action, not a criminal action. In relation to criminal matters you might be correct (depending upon the circumstances). But we are not talking about criminal matters (although a criminal matter might arise from such an inspection). The law can be a pisser that way. Just ask Yossarian....
Section 107 is offline  
Old Feb 13, 2017, 10:59 am
  #25  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Greensboro
Programs: TSA
Posts: 2,424
Originally Posted by ND Sol
Even if I am past the checkpoint and in the sterile area, unless I am presenting myself for boarding or you have at least a reasonable suspicion of a violation, you may not legally search me without my consent or a warrant. Read the CFR to see the language.

How many searches of persons have you done without their consent past the checkpoint and not part of the boarding process where you had no reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing?

Can you post a photo of that signage?
If you are in the sterile area of an airport, you and your property are subject to search. The TSA.gov page even states this https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening.

"TSA officers may use risk-based security measures to identify, mitigate and resolve potential threats at the airport security checkpoint. These officers may ask you questions about your travel to include identity, travel itinerary and property. TSA may use a variety of screening processes, including random screening, regardless of whether an alarm is triggered. In addition, TSA uses unpredictable security measures throughout the airport and no individual is guaranteed expedited screening."

This indicates that there is a random screening element throughout the airport - to include employees, even TSOs. I can speak that this happens consistently (at least at a couple of places anyway), because I have been screened 3 times in the last year at my own airport, and twice at another airport during the course of my duties. I can not post copies of the signage, because I am unable to find one online at one of our sites (and I pretty much try to stick to things I can find on our own pages to post). These searches are a part of the larger regulatory plan, and have been since I have been working here (12 years).
gsoltso is offline  
Old Feb 13, 2017, 6:14 pm
  #26  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: CLT
Programs: Choice Hotels/FFOCUS
Posts: 7,256
Who makes the decision to search a TSO ?
coachrowsey is offline  
Old Feb 14, 2017, 6:59 am
  #27  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 8,956
Originally Posted by Section 107
Would you please post the actual CFR or at least cite the section you are referring to?

Because 49 CFR Ch 11 Part 1542, gives no such limitations.

it is very important to remember that at an airport a security inspection is an administrative action, not a criminal action. In relation to criminal matters you might be correct (depending upon the circumstances). But we are not talking about criminal matters (although a criminal matter might arise from such an inspection). The law can be a pisser that way. Just ask Yossarian....
Is 49 CFR 1542 applicable to non-covered persons?

§ 1540.107 Submission to screening and inspection. (a) No individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access to that area or aircraft under this subchapter.
The searches are administrative in nature and, as such, must be tailored narrowly as otherwise they are violative of the Fourth Amendment.

Originally Posted by gsoltso
If you are in the sterile area of an airport, you and your property are subject to search. The TSA.gov page even states this https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening.

"TSA officers may use risk-based security measures to identify, mitigate and resolve potential threats at the airport security checkpoint. These officers may ask you questions about your travel to include identity, travel itinerary and property. TSA may use a variety of screening processes, including random screening, regardless of whether an alarm is triggered. In addition, TSA uses unpredictable security measures throughout the airport and no individual is guaranteed expedited screening."

This indicates that there is a random screening element throughout the airport - to include employees, even TSOs. I can speak that this happens consistently (at least at a couple of places anyway), because I have been screened 3 times in the last year at my own airport, and twice at another airport during the course of my duties. I can not post copies of the signage, because I am unable to find one online at one of our sites (and I pretty much try to stick to things I can find on our own pages to post). These searches are a part of the larger regulatory plan, and have been since I have been working here (12 years).
The only applicable statement to outside the screening checkpoint in your quote is "TSA uses unpredictable security measures throughout the airport." That can (and most probably does) mean something different than your conclusion of "a random screening element throughout the airport" of non-covered persons.

We read all the time that TSOs have no right to detain non-covered persons such that posters regularly state that in TSA drills they refuse to freeze and keep on walking. It would be incongruous to state that it is okay to keep walking when ordered to freeze, but it is not okay when a TSO wants to detain you for a purely random physical search.

Why can't you just take a photo of the signage at your airport and post it. That way we can actually see the verbiage and not conjecture about it.

Once again, how many searches of persons have you done without their consent past the checkpoint and not part of the boarding process where you had no reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing?

Bottom line, a higher standard to conduct a search of a non-covered person is required if that person is not proceeding through the screening checkpoint or is not boarding an aircraft.

Last edited by ND Sol; Feb 14, 2017 at 7:23 am
ND Sol is offline  
Old Feb 14, 2017, 10:06 am
  #28  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: WAS
Programs: enjoyed being warm spit for a few years on CO/UA but now nothing :(
Posts: 2,507
1542 applies to all airports requiring a security program or any airport that serves an operator that must have a security program. So, in short, yes, all airports are subject to TSA supervision (there are probably a very few small, privately-owned/personal airfields, and military fields, that are not covered).

But your larger point is well taken and some correction/clarification is needed, particularly in regard to TSA as an agency vs TSOs as employees.

TSA as an agency has extremely broad authority to supervise/oversee and inspect/ensure compliance with security requirements at airports.

Generally this authority is applied to only the sterile, SIDA and AOA areas of an airport. However, this authority does extend to areas adjacent to the sterile, SIDA and AOA areas. So, TSA has authority over extensive (but not "all") areas of airports including parking areas that may be next to, or just near, a SIDA or AOA.

TSOs (as differentiated from TSA as an agency) have little or no authority to search beyond the area of their post which could be at passenger, baggage, or cargo screening points, or entry points to certain areas of the airport, unless otherwise established by agreement between the airport/aircraft operator and TSA. And as has been discussed many times, when a TSO discovers a non-compliant situation it is the law enforcement agency having jurisdiction that resolves the situation.

But TSA employees from various offices (Inspections, Security Operations, Law Enforcement) have broad authority to carry out the broadly-defined statutory responsibilities of the agency and this includes inspections/searches.

Having said all of that - you are correct that those TSA employees who are authorized to inspect cannot arbitrarily stop anyone and conduct a search anywhere on the airport property; this limitation also applies to the local law enforcement agency. As you said, outside of designated areas they must have a reason to stop and search someone.
Section 107 is offline  
Old Feb 14, 2017, 11:00 am
  #29  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,681
Originally Posted by Section 107
TSOs (as differentiated from TSA as an agency) have little or no authority to search beyond the area of their post which could be at passenger, baggage, or cargo screening points, or entry points to certain areas of the airport, unless otherwise established by agreement between the airport/aircraft operator and TSA. And as has been discussed many times, when a TSO discovers a non-compliant situation it is the law enforcement agency having jurisdiction that resolves the situation.
TSOs have unchecked authority to screen pax and belongings and to interrogate pax anywhere in the sterile area. According to one PHX supervisor, this authority extends to 'anywhere on SkyHarbor property, actually'.

I've had a TSO start interrogating me in the sterile area, follow me into a bathroom, and continuing trying to talk to me while I was in the stall doing my business. I knew that at any point, the TSO could demand to search my bags. Looking bag, I realize now that I had zero recourse if the TSO had insisted on taking me into a toilet stall and groping me. If I complained, I'd be missing my flight for sure and probably have been dealing with LE.

At least one TSO (STSO, IIRC) was arrested after pulling random female pax into private spots in the sterile area for 'enhanced groping'. A drunk at one airport masqueraded as a TSO and groped a couple pax. Surprisingly enough, no eagle-eyed TSOs or BDOs spotted the guy - or if they did, they honored the 'blue line' and didn't say anything.
chollie is offline  
Old Feb 14, 2017, 12:06 pm
  #30  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: WAS
Programs: enjoyed being warm spit for a few years on CO/UA but now nothing :(
Posts: 2,507
I could have been a little more clear on the "area of their post" - that includes the sterile area and is not limited to just the immediate area of the screening location.
Section 107 is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.