Traveling domestically with $15K USD.
Jun 25, 2014, 7:54 am
#61
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Finally back in Boston after escaping from New York
Posts: 13,644
I'm willing to give him time; I'm willing to play nice and so on and so on. But ultimately, even if he's a good guy with the best intentions in the world, he cannot, by definition, "help."
He could, for example, tell us that chollie's nitro pills ARE absolutely permitted without qualification. But the next time chollie runs into a power-hungry clerk who insist that they are NOT permitted (and you know that's going to happen), Ross is just some guy on a bulletin board who typed some stuff. Or "the rules have changed." Or "we have the authority to be more stringent here."
He has already used the well-worn line that we've heard from <deleted> and others that "that shouldn't happen." Of course it shouldn't; but it does. What can Ross do about it?
The problem is not that, up until now, we haven't been able to ask questions about TSA's policies. The problem is not that, up until now, we haven't had a TSA website that purports to answer the questions. The problem is that there is a gigantic abyss between what the TSA says "should" happen and what passengers encounter at a particular checkpoint on a particular day. Whether is gap is by design - TSA don't want to have clear rules and be consistent - or by lack of control - TSA management cannot get its screeners to follow rules consistently - doesn't matter in practice.
The only thing that could address that HERE is to have someone from TSA who is not simply a "press secretary", but someone who has authority to go back to HQ and say "this policy isn't consistent" or "this rule is being ignored" and then get it changed in the field and create consequences for checkpoints that don't comply. I'm not holding my breath.
TL;DR Anything Ross presents as "the rules" can be contradicted, without consequence, by any TSA screener at any time.
He could, for example, tell us that chollie's nitro pills ARE absolutely permitted without qualification. But the next time chollie runs into a power-hungry clerk who insist that they are NOT permitted (and you know that's going to happen), Ross is just some guy on a bulletin board who typed some stuff. Or "the rules have changed." Or "we have the authority to be more stringent here."
He has already used the well-worn line that we've heard from <deleted> and others that "that shouldn't happen." Of course it shouldn't; but it does. What can Ross do about it?
The problem is not that, up until now, we haven't been able to ask questions about TSA's policies. The problem is not that, up until now, we haven't had a TSA website that purports to answer the questions. The problem is that there is a gigantic abyss between what the TSA says "should" happen and what passengers encounter at a particular checkpoint on a particular day. Whether is gap is by design - TSA don't want to have clear rules and be consistent - or by lack of control - TSA management cannot get its screeners to follow rules consistently - doesn't matter in practice.
The only thing that could address that HERE is to have someone from TSA who is not simply a "press secretary", but someone who has authority to go back to HQ and say "this policy isn't consistent" or "this rule is being ignored" and then get it changed in the field and create consequences for checkpoints that don't comply. I'm not holding my breath.
TL;DR Anything Ross presents as "the rules" can be contradicted, without consequence, by any TSA screener at any time.
Mike
Last edited by TWA884; Jun 26, 2017 at 3:02 pm Reason: Privacy / Conform to moderator's edit of quoted post
Jun 25, 2014, 10:03 am
#62
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO
Programs: Lifetime (for now) Gold MM, HH Gold, Giving Tootsie Pops to UA employees, & a retired hockey goalie
Posts: 28,878
I'm willing to give him time; I'm willing to play nice and so on and so on. But ultimately, even if he's a good guy with the best intentions in the world, he cannot, by definition, "help."
He could, for example, tell us that chollie's nitro pills ARE absolutely permitted without qualification. But the next time chollie runs into a power-hungry clerk who insist that they are NOT permitted (and you know that's going to happen), Ross is just some guy on a bulletin board who typed some stuff. Or "the rules have changed." Or "we have the authority to be more stringent here."
He has already used the well-worn line that we've heard from <deleted> and others that "that shouldn't happen." Of course it shouldn't; but it does. What can Ross do about it?
The problem is not that, up until now, we haven't been able to ask questions about TSA's policies. The problem is not that, up until now, we haven't had a TSA website that purports to answer the questions. The problem is that there is a gigantic abyss between what the TSA says "should" happen and what passengers encounter at a particular checkpoint on a particular day. Whether is gap is by design - TSA don't want to have clear rules and be consistent - or by lack of control - TSA management cannot get its screeners to follow rules consistently - doesn't matter in practice.
The only thing that could address that HERE is to have someone from TSA who is not simply a "press secretary", but someone who has authority to go back to HQ and say "this policy isn't consistent" or "this rule is being ignored" and then get it changed in the field and create consequences for checkpoints that don't comply. I'm not holding my breath.
TL;DR Anything Ross presents as "the rules" can be contradicted, without consequence, by any TSA screener at any time.
He could, for example, tell us that chollie's nitro pills ARE absolutely permitted without qualification. But the next time chollie runs into a power-hungry clerk who insist that they are NOT permitted (and you know that's going to happen), Ross is just some guy on a bulletin board who typed some stuff. Or "the rules have changed." Or "we have the authority to be more stringent here."
He has already used the well-worn line that we've heard from <deleted> and others that "that shouldn't happen." Of course it shouldn't; but it does. What can Ross do about it?
The problem is not that, up until now, we haven't been able to ask questions about TSA's policies. The problem is not that, up until now, we haven't had a TSA website that purports to answer the questions. The problem is that there is a gigantic abyss between what the TSA says "should" happen and what passengers encounter at a particular checkpoint on a particular day. Whether is gap is by design - TSA don't want to have clear rules and be consistent - or by lack of control - TSA management cannot get its screeners to follow rules consistently - doesn't matter in practice.
The only thing that could address that HERE is to have someone from TSA who is not simply a "press secretary", but someone who has authority to go back to HQ and say "this policy isn't consistent" or "this rule is being ignored" and then get it changed in the field and create consequences for checkpoints that don't comply. I'm not holding my breath.
TL;DR Anything Ross presents as "the rules" can be contradicted, without consequence, by any TSA screener at any time.
Last edited by TWA884; Jun 26, 2017 at 3:02 pm Reason: Privacy / Conform to moderator's edit of quoted post
Jun 25, 2014, 2:56 pm
#65
Company Representative, TSA
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 101
Currency alone is not a threat, and TSA does not restrict the amount of currency a traveler may carry through the checkpoint. In certain instances, TSA may examine large amounts of currency that are detected for potential threats, because it could be used to conceal other prohibited items.
Ordinarily, there should be no need to ask questions of an individual about currency except as it relates to security. TSA works closely with our federal, state and local partners at airports nationwide. For example, we will inform U.S. Custom and Border Protection (CPB) officials when we encounter international travelers with currency exceeding $10,000. TSA will also inform law enforcement officials if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. In these cases, TSA simply notifies the law enforcement officials and does not detain individuals on their behalf. Once security screening is completed, the individual is free to leave.
The decision to summon law enforcement is at the discretion of the supervisory transportation security officer only if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. The procedures in place ensures consistency across the agency with regard to the discovery of large amounts of currency at TSA checkpoints.
Ordinarily, there should be no need to ask questions of an individual about currency except as it relates to security. TSA works closely with our federal, state and local partners at airports nationwide. For example, we will inform U.S. Custom and Border Protection (CPB) officials when we encounter international travelers with currency exceeding $10,000. TSA will also inform law enforcement officials if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. In these cases, TSA simply notifies the law enforcement officials and does not detain individuals on their behalf. Once security screening is completed, the individual is free to leave.
The decision to summon law enforcement is at the discretion of the supervisory transportation security officer only if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. The procedures in place ensures consistency across the agency with regard to the discovery of large amounts of currency at TSA checkpoints.
Jun 25, 2014, 3:38 pm
#66
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DFW
Programs: AS, BA, AA
Posts: 3,670
Ordinarily, there should be no need to ask questions of an individual about currency except as it relates to security. TSA works closely with our federal, state and local partners at airports nationwide. For example, we will inform U.S. Custom and Border Protection (CPB) officials when we encounter international travelers with currency exceeding $10,000. TSA will also inform law enforcement officials if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. In these cases, TSA simply notifies the law enforcement officials and does not detain individuals on their behalf. Once security screening is completed, the individual is free to leave.
I don't see how it's possible to accomplish this procedure without conducting a search that is much more intensive than necessary to detect weapons, incendiaries, and explosives.
Finally, when is the TSA going to update their outdated blog post and say what changes have been implemented as fallout from "the Saint Louis incident"?
Jun 25, 2014, 3:47 pm
#67
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 506
Jun 25, 2014, 4:00 pm
#69
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards. Tha... that's about it.
Posts: 4,332
Currency alone is not a threat, and TSA does not restrict the amount of currency a traveler may carry through the checkpoint. In certain instances, TSA may examine large amounts of currency that are detected for potential threats, because it could be used to conceal other prohibited items.
Ordinarily, there should be no need to ask questions of an individual about currency except as it relates to security. TSA works closely with our federal, state and local partners at airports nationwide. For example, we will inform U.S. Custom and Border Protection (CPB) officials when we encounter international travelers with currency exceeding $10,000. TSA will also inform law enforcement officials if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. In these cases, TSA simply notifies the law enforcement officials and does not detain individuals on their behalf. Once security screening is completed, the individual is free to leave.
The decision to summon law enforcement is at the discretion of the supervisory transportation security officer only if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. The procedures in place ensures consistency across the agency with regard to the discovery of large amounts of currency at TSA checkpoints.
Ordinarily, there should be no need to ask questions of an individual about currency except as it relates to security. TSA works closely with our federal, state and local partners at airports nationwide. For example, we will inform U.S. Custom and Border Protection (CPB) officials when we encounter international travelers with currency exceeding $10,000. TSA will also inform law enforcement officials if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. In these cases, TSA simply notifies the law enforcement officials and does not detain individuals on their behalf. Once security screening is completed, the individual is free to leave.
The decision to summon law enforcement is at the discretion of the supervisory transportation security officer only if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. The procedures in place ensures consistency across the agency with regard to the discovery of large amounts of currency at TSA checkpoints.
1) There is no way for a TSO to know whether currency exceeds $10,000 except to count it, which they are in no way empowered to do.
2) TSOs who perform bag checks have no way to know whether a traveler with bulk cash is traveling internationally, since the bag checkers do not check the traveler's documents. Further, even if they did check the traveler's documents, there is no way to know whether a traveler is on a domestic leg of an international flight, or simply on a domestic flight.
3) There is no way for any TSOto determine that bulk cash "appears" to be related to criminal activity, short of blood splatter or fresh dye bomb residue covering the money.
Any of these so-called criteria you mentioned are nothing but uninformed, unprofessional, potentially discriminatory supposition on the part of a TSO. In other words, they GUESS, nothing more, and are never held accountable when their guesses turn out wrong (which is almost always) and an innocent traveller is harassed needlessly.
Let's be frank - TSOs don't make a lot of money. Consequently, ANYbulk cash is going to look like "a lot of money" to a TSO, and many TSOs will allow their personal prejudices re: certain racial groups, people with accents, people in particular clothing, etc. to influence his or her perception of what "appears"to be related to criminal activity. To some TSOs, anything more than $100 in cash looks like a drug dealer's stash - particularly if the traveler carrying it "appears" to the TSO to be of a certain racial group or speaks with an accent.
Likewise, any traveler who speaks with an accent, regardless of both residency status or their flight destination, is going to "appear"to some TSOs to be an international traveler. Consequently, some TSOs are going to refer American citizens traveling on completely domestic itineraries to CBP on a false suspicion of carrying more then $10,000 outside the country.
Unless TSA establishes a set of objective criteria to guide when such CBP or local LEO referals are to be performed, leaving it up to the highly questionable and easily prejudiced discretion of the front-line TSOs is a recipe for abuse and harassment.
Which is what we have now.
Jun 25, 2014, 5:32 pm
#70
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DFW
Programs: AS, BA, AA
Posts: 3,670
The most recent story I've heard about this was the ridiculous Bitcoin incident:
http://dailyanarchist.com/2014/02/24...g-for-bitcoin/
which seems to indicate that someone at TSA feels entitled to interrogate passengers about digital currency.
Jun 25, 2014, 9:50 pm
#71
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 50
Currency alone is not a threat, and TSA does not restrict the amount of currency a traveler may carry through the checkpoint. In certain instances, TSA may examine large amounts of currency that are detected for potential threats, because it could be used to conceal other prohibited items.
Ordinarily, there should be no need to ask questions of an individual about currency except as it relates to security. TSA works closely with our federal, state and local partners at airports nationwide. For example, we will inform U.S. Custom and Border Protection (CPB) officials when we encounter international travelers with currency exceeding $10,000. TSA will also inform law enforcement officials if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. In these cases, TSA simply notifies the law enforcement officials and does not detain individuals on their behalf. Once security screening is completed, the individual is free to leave.
The decision to summon law enforcement is at the discretion of the supervisory transportation security officer only if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. The procedures in place ensures consistency across the agency with regard to the discovery of large amounts of currency at TSA checkpoints.
Ordinarily, there should be no need to ask questions of an individual about currency except as it relates to security. TSA works closely with our federal, state and local partners at airports nationwide. For example, we will inform U.S. Custom and Border Protection (CPB) officials when we encounter international travelers with currency exceeding $10,000. TSA will also inform law enforcement officials if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. In these cases, TSA simply notifies the law enforcement officials and does not detain individuals on their behalf. Once security screening is completed, the individual is free to leave.
The decision to summon law enforcement is at the discretion of the supervisory transportation security officer only if it appears the currency could be related to criminal activity. The procedures in place ensures consistency across the agency with regard to the discovery of large amounts of currency at TSA checkpoints.
Jun 26, 2014, 5:07 am
#72
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 962
Where is the updated policy reflecting the settlement?
https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/TS..._Statement.pdf
Jun 26, 2014, 6:09 am
#73
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,595
Thank you for at least making an effort to address this issue, though I must say, your response falls woefully short of both the law and common logic.
1) There is no way for a TSO to know whether currency exceeds $10,000 except to count it, which they are in no way empowered to do.
2) TSOs who perform bag checks have no way to know whether a traveler with bulk cash is traveling internationally, since the bag checkers do not check the traveler's documents. Further, even if they did check the traveler's documents, there is no way to know whether a traveler is on a domestic leg of an international flight, or simply on a domestic flight.
3) There is no way for any TSOto determine that bulk cash "appears" to be related to criminal activity, short of blood splatter or fresh dye bomb residue covering the money.
Any of these so-called criteria you mentioned are nothing but uninformed, unprofessional, potentially discriminatory supposition on the part of a TSO. In other words, they GUESS, nothing more, and are never held accountable when their guesses turn out wrong (which is almost always) and an innocent traveller is harassed needlessly.
Let's be frank - TSOs don't make a lot of money. Consequently, ANYbulk cash is going to look like "a lot of money" to a TSO, and many TSOs will allow their personal prejudices re: certain racial groups, people with accents, people in particular clothing, etc. to influence his or her perception of what "appears"to be related to criminal activity. To some TSOs, anything more than $100 in cash looks like a drug dealer's stash - particularly if the traveler carrying it "appears" to the TSO to be of a certain racial group or speaks with an accent.
Likewise, any traveler who speaks with an accent, regardless of both residency status or their flight destination, is going to "appear"to some TSOs to be an international traveler. Consequently, some TSOs are going to refer American citizens traveling on completely domestic itineraries to CBP on a false suspicion of carrying more then $10,000 outside the country.
Unless TSA establishes a set of objective criteria to guide when such CBP or local LEO referals are to be performed, leaving it up to the highly questionable and easily prejudiced discretion of the front-line TSOs is a recipe for abuse and harassment.
Which is what we have now.
1) There is no way for a TSO to know whether currency exceeds $10,000 except to count it, which they are in no way empowered to do.
2) TSOs who perform bag checks have no way to know whether a traveler with bulk cash is traveling internationally, since the bag checkers do not check the traveler's documents. Further, even if they did check the traveler's documents, there is no way to know whether a traveler is on a domestic leg of an international flight, or simply on a domestic flight.
3) There is no way for any TSOto determine that bulk cash "appears" to be related to criminal activity, short of blood splatter or fresh dye bomb residue covering the money.
Any of these so-called criteria you mentioned are nothing but uninformed, unprofessional, potentially discriminatory supposition on the part of a TSO. In other words, they GUESS, nothing more, and are never held accountable when their guesses turn out wrong (which is almost always) and an innocent traveller is harassed needlessly.
Let's be frank - TSOs don't make a lot of money. Consequently, ANYbulk cash is going to look like "a lot of money" to a TSO, and many TSOs will allow their personal prejudices re: certain racial groups, people with accents, people in particular clothing, etc. to influence his or her perception of what "appears"to be related to criminal activity. To some TSOs, anything more than $100 in cash looks like a drug dealer's stash - particularly if the traveler carrying it "appears" to the TSO to be of a certain racial group or speaks with an accent.
Likewise, any traveler who speaks with an accent, regardless of both residency status or their flight destination, is going to "appear"to some TSOs to be an international traveler. Consequently, some TSOs are going to refer American citizens traveling on completely domestic itineraries to CBP on a false suspicion of carrying more then $10,000 outside the country.
Unless TSA establishes a set of objective criteria to guide when such CBP or local LEO referals are to be performed, leaving it up to the highly questionable and easily prejudiced discretion of the front-line TSOs is a recipe for abuse and harassment.
Which is what we have now.
Now that the Supreme Court has delivered a 9-0 message to law enforcement that the Fourth Amendment hasn't been suspended, I hope they turn to the abuses perpetrated by the TSA.
Jun 26, 2014, 11:05 am
#74
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DFW
Programs: AS, BA, AA
Posts: 3,670
[deja vu... I feel like I have made this comment before
]Any incidents prior to September 2009 were under the 'old' policy, so dragging them up may be satisfying, but not particularly germane.
Jun 26, 2014, 11:52 am
#75
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
As you know, cases have to get before the Supremes - and DHS/TSA make it extremely difficult to do so. By design? I believe so because DHS/TSA know that they would be knocked from here to kingdom come if every Tom, Dick and Susie were allowed to file complaints and get them heard.