Poll: 'Majority of Americans Believe TSA PreCheck Hurts Security'
Apr 29, 2014, 9:32 am
#76
Join Date: May 2009
Location: LGA, JFK
Posts: 1,018
Lets not forget that one of the primary intensions of the security check is to have a 10-15 minute lineup if possible. If someone is knowingly attempting to get something past security, they will usually show some nervous tendencies while waiting in line. The more they wait, the more they get nervous (to a point). The lines are being watched for these tells (a kind of profiling) either via camera or persons on the ground.
And, when they identify someone showing such "nervous tendencies," they alert, who, the scanner/groper personnel? Who then do, what?
What a waste of our money.
Apr 29, 2014, 9:45 am
#77
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: ATL
Programs: DL Scattered Smothered Covered Medallion, Some hotel & car stuff, Kroger Plus Card
Posts: 10,745
Picking out "nervous tendencies" from a queue of 100 people on a CCTV monitor? Heck, it could just be that I shouldn't have had that third chili dog last night...
Apr 29, 2014, 10:02 am
#78
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,967
Lets not forget that one of the primary intensions of the security check is to have a 10-15 minute lineup if possible. If someone is knowingly attempting to get something past security, they will usually show some nervous tendencies while waiting in line. The more they wait, the more they get nervous (to a point). The lines are being watched for these tells (a kind of profiling) either via camera or persons on the ground.
Apr 29, 2014, 10:34 am
#79
Moderator: Coupon Connection & S.P.A.M
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Louisville, KY
Programs: Destination Unknown, TSA Disparager Diamond (LTDD)
Posts: 57,953
I file a complaint each and every time my wait exceeds 10 min for any reason in the USA.
Apr 29, 2014, 11:19 am
#80
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
Lets not forget that one of the primary intensions of the security check is to have a 10-15 minute lineup if possible. If someone is knowingly attempting to get something past security, they will usually show some nervous tendencies while waiting in line. The more they wait, the more they get nervous (to a point). The lines are being watched for these tells (a kind of profiling) either via camera or persons on the ground.
If that's the case, all the bad guy has to do is determine which airports have short lines at any particular time so he can breeze on through.
It appears that you have fallen for the TSA's BDO program hook, line and sinker.
And by the way, you might want to read this:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0...ype=blogs&_r=0
But even the computer was accurate only 85% of the time.
Apr 29, 2014, 12:31 pm
#81
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,521
Someone trying to attempt something major isn't going to have a 36" machete in their carryon, or a pipe taped to their leg. They will either try and get their 'stuff' past security without going through the detectors/xray machines (merchandise going to stores in the secure area or an inside person who works at the airport), or try getting stuff that the detectors don't pick up.
The current system (since 2001) is there to prevent idiots who "forget they had packed a gun" and to make regular people feel safe when flying.
This is the same thing that border agents do. Look at people's actions BEFORE they get to the window. If you don't believe that there are people watching body language, facial expressions, attitudes, etc. and believe that the scanners, xray machines, pat downs are there to find things...keep believing that.
Also, I said 10-15 minutes from line up to out the other end. Not 50 minutes....
After gong through security at a TSA airport last year, I was missing something from my bag. I moved to the side and started looking through my bag, getting more and more stressed as I was looking. In less that 1 minute, 2 TSA agents and a supervisor came out of nowhere and asked me what I was doing and if they could 'help-me' (help me move on I gather). Someone was checking around for 'suspicious' behaviour. Turns out I had dropped the missing item at the hotel earlier than morning, but my actions were not those of a normal passenger and I was surprised at the speed and efficiency of their actions.
The current system (since 2001) is there to prevent idiots who "forget they had packed a gun" and to make regular people feel safe when flying.
This is the same thing that border agents do. Look at people's actions BEFORE they get to the window. If you don't believe that there are people watching body language, facial expressions, attitudes, etc. and believe that the scanners, xray machines, pat downs are there to find things...keep believing that.
Also, I said 10-15 minutes from line up to out the other end. Not 50 minutes....
After gong through security at a TSA airport last year, I was missing something from my bag. I moved to the side and started looking through my bag, getting more and more stressed as I was looking. In less that 1 minute, 2 TSA agents and a supervisor came out of nowhere and asked me what I was doing and if they could 'help-me' (help me move on I gather). Someone was checking around for 'suspicious' behaviour. Turns out I had dropped the missing item at the hotel earlier than morning, but my actions were not those of a normal passenger and I was surprised at the speed and efficiency of their actions.
Last edited by PLeblond; Apr 29, 2014 at 12:36 pm
Apr 29, 2014, 12:32 pm
#82
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: London
Posts: 17,007
Lets not forget that one of the primary intensions of the security check is to have a 10-15 minute lineup if possible. If someone is knowingly attempting to get something past security, they will usually show some nervous tendencies while waiting in line. The more they wait, the more they get nervous (to a point). The lines are being watched for these tells (a kind of profiling) either via camera or persons on the ground.
The Government Accountability Office concluded after extensive analysis that it was, at best, "slightly better than chance", and recommended to Congress that it should be shut down.
http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-159
There is no scientific consensus that "tells" can be used to identify would-be terrorists or violent individuals, and in general the evidence points in the opposite direction.
Apr 29, 2014, 12:58 pm
#83
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,521
You have paid approximately $1 billion for a program called "Screening of Passengers by Observation Techniques" ($200 million per year).
The Government Accountability Office concluded after extensive analysis that it was, at best, "slightly better than chance", and recommended to Congress that it should be shut down.
http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-159
There is no scientific consensus that "tells" can be used to identify would-be terrorists or violent individuals, and in general the evidence points in the opposite direction.
The Government Accountability Office concluded after extensive analysis that it was, at best, "slightly better than chance", and recommended to Congress that it should be shut down.
http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-159
There is no scientific consensus that "tells" can be used to identify would-be terrorists or violent individuals, and in general the evidence points in the opposite direction.
Apr 29, 2014, 3:51 pm
#84
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards. Tha... that's about it.
Posts: 4,332
Someone trying to attempt something major isn't going to have a 36" machete in their carryon, or a pipe taped to their leg. They will either try and get their 'stuff' past security without going through the detectors/xray machines (merchandise going to stores in the secure area or an inside person who works at the airport), or try getting stuff that the detectors don't pick up.
The current system (since 2001) is there to prevent idiots who "forget they had packed a gun" and to make regular people feel safe when flying.
This is the same thing that border agents do. Look at people's actions BEFORE they get to the window. If you don't believe that there are people watching body language, facial expressions, attitudes, etc. and believe that the scanners, xray machines, pat downs are there to find things...keep believing that.
The current system (since 2001) is there to prevent idiots who "forget they had packed a gun" and to make regular people feel safe when flying.
This is the same thing that border agents do. Look at people's actions BEFORE they get to the window. If you don't believe that there are people watching body language, facial expressions, attitudes, etc. and believe that the scanners, xray machines, pat downs are there to find things...keep believing that.
Also, I said 10-15 minutes from line up to out the other end. Not 50 minutes....
After gong through security at a TSA airport last year, I was missing something from my bag. I moved to the side and started looking through my bag, getting more and more stressed as I was looking. In less that 1 minute, 2 TSA agents and a supervisor came out of nowhere and asked me what I was doing and if they could 'help-me' (help me move on I gather). Someone was checking around for 'suspicious' behaviour. Turns out I had dropped the missing item at the hotel earlier than morning, but my actions were not those of a normal passenger and I was surprised at the speed and efficiency of their actions.
After gong through security at a TSA airport last year, I was missing something from my bag. I moved to the side and started looking through my bag, getting more and more stressed as I was looking. In less that 1 minute, 2 TSA agents and a supervisor came out of nowhere and asked me what I was doing and if they could 'help-me' (help me move on I gather). Someone was checking around for 'suspicious' behaviour. Turns out I had dropped the missing item at the hotel earlier than morning, but my actions were not those of a normal passenger and I was surprised at the speed and efficiency of their actions.
My best friend won $10,000 from a lottery scratch-off ticket a few months ago. Using your technique of one incident equaling a pattern of behavior, I'd estimate that my friend wins $10,000 with every scratcher he buys.
But your original assertion has a fatal flaw - you were questioned by three TSOs because you lost something and were searching your bag for it. You assumed that they were checking you out because you were behaving suspiciously, but
1) There was nothing suspicious about your behavior. You were looking through your bag for something.
2) You had no nefarious intent, so even if they were BDOs, they couldn't have picked up on your nefarious intent, because there was none.
3) You yourself said "Help me (move on I gather", meaning that they were really just trying to clear the lane, not checking you out for your behavior.
Your leap to the "they're always watching and they see everything" is ludicrous. There are a limited number of BDOs and they don't operate in every airport. According to GAO, "By fiscal year 2012, about 3,000 BDOs were deployed to 176 of the more than 450 TSA-regulated airports in the United States."
That's 3,000 out of 50,000 TSOs, or 6%, and 176 out of 450 airports, or 39%. In other words, less than half of US airports even have BDOs, and only 6 out of every 100 TSOs is a BDO, so your odds of ever even seeing one are not all that great.
Your odds of encountering a TSO with Respect Mah Authoritah! syndrome who orders you to move along when he spots you doing something innocuous like searching your carry-on for a missing item, are far higher.
Apr 29, 2014, 4:31 pm
#85
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,521
If you believe they are watching everything... keep believing that.
So, ONE incident, ONE time, at ONE airport, led you to believe something that applies to hundreds of airports across the country at all times?
My best friend won $10,000 from a lottery scratch-off ticket a few months ago. Using your technique of one incident equaling a pattern of behavior, I'd estimate that my friend wins $10,000 with every scratcher he buys.
But your original assertion has a fatal flaw - you were questioned by three TSOs because you lost something and were searching your bag for it. You assumed that they were checking you out because you were behaving suspiciously, but
1) There was nothing suspicious about your behavior. You were looking through your bag for something.
2) You had no nefarious intent, so even if they were BDOs, they couldn't have picked up on your nefarious intent, because there was none.
3) You yourself said "Help me (move on I gather", meaning that they were really just trying to clear the lane, not checking you out for your behavior.
Your leap to the "they're always watching and they see everything" is ludicrous. There are a limited number of BDOs and they don't operate in every airport. According to GAO, "By fiscal year 2012, about 3,000 BDOs were deployed to 176 of the more than 450 TSA-regulated airports in the United States."
That's 3,000 out of 50,000 TSOs, or 6%, and 176 out of 450 airports, or 39%. In other words, less than half of US airports even have BDOs, and only 6 out of every 100 TSOs is a BDO, so your odds of ever even seeing one are not all that great.
Your odds of encountering a TSO with Respect Mah Authoritah! syndrome who orders you to move along when he spots you doing something innocuous like searching your carry-on for a missing item, are far higher.
So, ONE incident, ONE time, at ONE airport, led you to believe something that applies to hundreds of airports across the country at all times?
My best friend won $10,000 from a lottery scratch-off ticket a few months ago. Using your technique of one incident equaling a pattern of behavior, I'd estimate that my friend wins $10,000 with every scratcher he buys.
But your original assertion has a fatal flaw - you were questioned by three TSOs because you lost something and were searching your bag for it. You assumed that they were checking you out because you were behaving suspiciously, but
1) There was nothing suspicious about your behavior. You were looking through your bag for something.
2) You had no nefarious intent, so even if they were BDOs, they couldn't have picked up on your nefarious intent, because there was none.
3) You yourself said "Help me (move on I gather", meaning that they were really just trying to clear the lane, not checking you out for your behavior.
Your leap to the "they're always watching and they see everything" is ludicrous. There are a limited number of BDOs and they don't operate in every airport. According to GAO, "By fiscal year 2012, about 3,000 BDOs were deployed to 176 of the more than 450 TSA-regulated airports in the United States."
That's 3,000 out of 50,000 TSOs, or 6%, and 176 out of 450 airports, or 39%. In other words, less than half of US airports even have BDOs, and only 6 out of every 100 TSOs is a BDO, so your odds of ever even seeing one are not all that great.
Your odds of encountering a TSO with Respect Mah Authoritah! syndrome who orders you to move along when he spots you doing something innocuous like searching your carry-on for a missing item, are far higher.
Also, please do not take my comments as a support for the current system or as a thought that they are awesome and perfect. I think they could tone everything down by 15 notches and still be maintaining the current level of security. I whole heartily believe that the system is designed to be a deterrent for most potential trouble makers and (most importantly) to make people FEEL safe when they fly. Its all mostly an illusion to appease the general public. If someone really wants to do evil, they will find a way.
Apr 30, 2014, 7:51 am
#86
Join Date: May 2009
Location: LGA, JFK
Posts: 1,018
I am basing my opinion after discussing a similar issue with many border agents and RCMP personnel, more specifically, those in charge of training in those departments. I am assuming that the knowledge and techniques used are similar to those used by the TSA. There is always more than meets the eye on the ground. My "ONE incident, ONE time, at ONE airport" was simply (in my opinion) a confirmation on my part of what I had learned from those discussions. I know that the majority of the personnel at TSA are lower level employees who have a basic job, but I believe that there are better trained more knowledgeable personnel about. And I believe those persons do a better 'real' job of preventing problems.
Also, please do not take my comments as a support for the current system or as a thought that they are awesome and perfect. I think they could tone everything down by 15 notches and still be maintaining the current level of security. I whole heartily believe that the system is designed to be a deterrent for most potential trouble makers and (most importantly) to make people FEEL safe when they fly. Its all mostly an illusion to appease the general public. If someone really wants to do evil, they will find a way.
Also, please do not take my comments as a support for the current system or as a thought that they are awesome and perfect. I think they could tone everything down by 15 notches and still be maintaining the current level of security. I whole heartily believe that the system is designed to be a deterrent for most potential trouble makers and (most importantly) to make people FEEL safe when they fly. Its all mostly an illusion to appease the general public. If someone really wants to do evil, they will find a way.
Apr 30, 2014, 8:38 am
#87
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 959
Apr 30, 2014, 9:54 am
#88
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards. Tha... that's about it.
Posts: 4,332
I am basing my opinion after discussing a similar issue with many border agents and RCMP personnel, more specifically, those in charge of training in those departments. I am assuming that the knowledge and techniques used are similar to those used by the TSA. There is always more than meets the eye on the ground. My "ONE incident, ONE time, at ONE airport" was simply (in my opinion) a confirmation on my part of what I had learned from those discussions. I know that the majority of the personnel at TSA are lower level employees who have a basic job, but I believe that there are better trained more knowledgeable personnel about. And I believe those persons do a better 'real' job of preventing problems.
Also, please do not take my comments as a support for the current system or as a thought that they are awesome and perfect. I think they could tone everything down by 15 notches and still be maintaining the current level of security. I whole heartily believe that the system is designed to be a deterrent for most potential trouble makers and (most importantly) to make people FEEL safe when they fly. Its all mostly an illusion to appease the general public. If someone really wants to do evil, they will find a way.
Also, please do not take my comments as a support for the current system or as a thought that they are awesome and perfect. I think they could tone everything down by 15 notches and still be maintaining the current level of security. I whole heartily believe that the system is designed to be a deterrent for most potential trouble makers and (most importantly) to make people FEEL safe when they fly. Its all mostly an illusion to appease the general public. If someone really wants to do evil, they will find a way.
A) If there is such a widespread program of highly-trained professional Watchers, outside of the actual SPOT program that's well known, it would be common knowledge due to the number of people involved.
If it's not common knowledge, it would only be because such a program was classified.
And if such a program were classified, your sources either wouldn't know about it or would be committing a felony by even discussing it with you.
B) If your sources are US border agents and RCMP, then any information you get is totally inapplicable to US airports, since RCMP is not a US agency, and US CBP provides border security, which is a totally different animal from domestic aviation security provided by TSA.
C) If CBP actually has a program similar to SPOT, such a program would be geared almost exclusively toward spotting smugglers and border jumpers, not terrorists, since border security is CBPs mandate, not anti-terrorism operations.
I am beginning to think that your entire premise is based on a house of cards. You heard rumors that CBP was maybe doing something that kinda sounded like it could be possibly effective, and made an unwarranted jump to assume that all US federal agencies are definitely doing it.
The one area where we agree is the unshakable belief that all of this behavioral observation nonsense is a completely useless boondoggle that has pissed away (in the case of TSA's SPOT program) nearly a billion dollars of taxpayer money without a darn thing to show for it.