Xandrios

True. Though with a forged tag it would be easier to also get away from luggage checks, or, a confrontation by the owner who realises that somebody is taking off with his/her bag.

Hi ChirsBD, welcome to Flyertalk. Do I assume correctly that you are involved with this project somehow? It would be very interesting to get some more information about the details of this system

How does the device realise that it needs to turn off before the flight starts? Time-based could be dangerous (Flights depart early or late sometimes). How does the tag 'realise' that it is on board an aircraft? (Presumably without modifications to either the aircraft or cellular network - as this should also work with other aircraft and cellular operators).

ChrisBD

My apologies for the delay in replying.
You assume correctly that I am involved in the project - I have been for two years now - but not on the commercial side.

I'm afraid that I can not share commercially sensitive information on this forum, which would include the automatic flight mode functionality. Suffice to say that it is designed to meet EU and US regulations. No changes are required to either aircraft or baggage handling systems.

But I would like to help the forum members better understand the products.

eTag and eTrack devices will be made available for purchase using air miles/loyalty scheme points and by direct payment. It is likely that there will be a subscription payment for the eTrack device which will cover its data use.

Devices are issued and registered to a known keeper and only useable by them.

The eTag may be used on its own as a permanent bag tag. Being equipped with both a dynamic barcode display and RFID chip it is compatible with all baggage handling systems unlike the Qantas tag.

If the registered keeper has a compatible smartphone, equipped with our app. they will be able to check-in online and program the eTag with their flight details.

If the user also has an eTrack registered to them then the eTrack acts as a conduit to program the eTag. Thus users without a suitable smartphone can use the eTag as long as they purchase an eTrack device.

A bag with a pre-programmed eTag has already been registered with airline DCS and so can just be dropped onto a baggage belt.

Airlines will be able to use the eTrack to locate lost luggage and to remotely reprogram the bound eTag. Greatly speeding up luggage recovery.

The eTrack devices use a secure GSM network and may be used as a tracker device on its own. Its use does not require the user to check-in on a flight. As well as allowing tracking and geo-fencing alarms when it has GSM coverage, it also has a proximity alarm using Bluetooth and the smartphone app.

As stated there are a number of mechanisms in place to protect against and detect cloning or hacking. There are protocols in place to ensure that only one eTag is programmed per passenger when checking in.

I would also like to point out that although announced by KLM/Air France the SkyTeam alliance has been closely involved in this project over the last two years and all partners agree that the functionality offered is a big advance over their current services.

irishguy28

Surely it's compatible with all baggage handling systems only as long as the airline in question supports the system. The same can be said of the Qantas tag (which, by the way, was only ever intended for the Qantas domestic network).

I can see a scenario in the future whereby eTagged bags are still labelled with the normal paper baggage tags when travelling outside of the AFKLDL network - just as happens today with Qantas tags internationally.


Excellent! So no more baggage fees. Just programme your own baggage tag and voilà! And no more baggage limits (as long as you have enough eTags).

Surely it's not that simple?


Oh - so there's a one bag per passenger limit?

Why is that, when the normal baggage limit is higher?

ChrisBD

Why would you think that?
The data programmed into the eTag for display and RFID is provided by the airline DCS.
This is the same information as provide for paper tags.
Are you suggesting that paper tags aren't supported worldwide and by every airline?
The barcode means that the eTag works in airports that do not support RFID.
The RFID data is not fixed as it is in the Qantas tag and meets IATA spec.

Do you honestly think that KLM would announce this as being available across the industry if they didn't think that it had the capability?

As stated the eTag and the eTrack devices are airline agnostic.

The only issue is that the eTag can only be programmed with data from a supporting DCS. Hence one of the reasons why the eTag is removable.

I do not work for the airline and so cannot say how they wish to handle this.
Suffice to say that there is no reason why you have to be limited to one eTag per check-in, but how this issue is to be handled by the airline is up to them. If you haven't paid for check-in luggage then there will be no DCS data to support it, so you won't be able to program the eTag.

I was only trying to illustrate how the system works.

I will not be involved in an argument over how the system works nor in justifying how it works.

If you wish to have more information on how this is to be rolled out then I suggest that you get in touch with KLM/Air France/Delta.

irishguy28

Absolutely not. But that doesn't automatically mean that every airline worldwide will (or even technically can) support these eTags.

I don't think when I check my bag with Ryanair, for example, that they will "support" such an e-Tag....Ryanair rely on paper for all boarding passes and baggage tags, and they carry more passengers annually than any other European airline.

Paper tags are clearly not exactly the same thing as these E-Tags.

ChrisBD

You do realise, that the paper tag is nothing to do with the airline but the baggage handling regulations and working practices as specified by the industry body IATA.

irishguy28

Is IATA involved in specing the new eTag? Because I'm fairly sure that whatever IATA says at present about baggage tags, it says absolutely nothing about allowing the DCS to interface with any sort of electronic ink tags (they can't be printed in the same manner as paper tags currently are, so every airline and every airport would have to invest in some sort of technology that would allow the baggage tag information that at present is delivered only to their own baggage label printer to also be deliverable to such a tag - this ability simply does not exist at present).

My point is that airlines outside of Skyteam may dislike this initiative and not allow their DCS to interface with these tags (they may decide to use their own alliance tags, if the scenario that competing systems arise, or if they merely dislike the way Skyteam attempts to roll out an industry-wide system). Of course, some might find it a great idea and gladly introduce the system, but I can't imagine every airline automatically rowing behind what appears to be a Skyteam initiative, especially when there is no problem with the current paper-based system!

ChrisBD

Yes IATA are involved (I thought that this was stated on some of the KLM promotional material.)

IATA have a working group who's sole aim is to ratify a standard for a permanent bag tag.

There are problems with the current paper tag system, that may not be immediately apparent to a passenger. Yes it appears to work very well, but it was never designed for the number of passenger flights that now take place and some airlines have to fudge the standard due to the passenger volumes.

There is industry pressure for a permanent or home print bag tag because it saves them money. It is why many airlines are introducing automated bag drop machines and self-service check-in kiosks. It is why budget airlines now insist on internet check-in and charge so much if you fail to do so.

They charge extra for hold luggage because they have to pay for the baggage handling as well as the member of staff to put a paper tag on your bag.

The eTracker will allow them to locate lost luggage faster and more reliably. A bonus for passenger and airline alike - you get your bag returned sooner, maybe even before you know that its missing, and the airline doesn't have to pay you compensation.

Security for DCS is a good point, but ultimately its no different sending data to a permanent bag tag than to a printer for a paper tag. There's just a different communications medium in between.

As it stands few airlines now control their own DCS, they purchase the service from elsewhere e.g. SITA and Amadeus to name but two.

OverThereTooMuch

Another article about this in the US over the weekend (though I don't see any new info).

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechcons...g?ft=1&;f=1019

orbitmic

I find your perceptions perhaps a bit harsh. Current luggage tags are not airline or alliance specific. When it comes to tags generated at airports, they use a system which neither designed nor controlled by individual airlines and alliances and their contribution seems pretty much limited to adding their logo on the printer. This includes the U2 and FR of this world which use the same system as everyone else. When luggage is lost you are also connected to a global system and not an airline specific one. In that sense, while airlines could of course arbitrarily refuse to carry a bag without a physical airport label (if what you mean is that FR is known for edicting the occasional random arbitrary decision!) i don't really see that as a problem of compatibility, which universality (at least in the sense of existing gds systems) I don't really see reasons to doubt.

I do have two questions though, both relatively narrow in scope:

1) when your bag is interlined between multiple airlines especially across alliances, my experience is that even though they all use the same system and tag, if you don't go to airline no2 (or 3, etc) so they scan your tag receipt, they will typically forget to charge your bag! It really shouldn't be needed so my guess is that this is due how multiple baggage handlers work / receive lists of the bags which loading should be verified. I presume the etag won't make this stop, and if not how should we do it with the etags;

2) if you fly purely within the EU, customs will expect to see a green marked tag. If you try to exit through the blue channel with a non-cabin luggage without a green tag this will likely immediately look suspicious. Have customs from key countries also been involved and how will they be able to confirm that your itinerary was what you said?

thecage6

Hallo everyone! i've seen this etag news today and i would like just to rise few questions.
Assuming that barcodes will be the same both on paper tags and etags and so there will be a better custumer service on tracking bags, what about customer's privacy? Beacause if a gps system will be integrated, airline will know bag's loction along with owner location's (when bag is not lost of course...)from where tag has been generated untill airport.And what about after flight lands?will the tag be deleted?
About security...if a passanger checks online and generate his bag tag at home, what happen if he wont show up? Does the airline system record a bag which is not actually in the hold ??!Could this take to higher risks of delaying flights?

PkerUNO

Apologies for bringing this thread back from the dead, but it appears this is now available to pre-order - just the baggage tracker, for now: http://www.eviate.com. €99 to pre-order, but it also requires a data subscription. The eTags are coming later.

strikerbird

How is it going with this project?

bodory

Last time I asked the dedicated team at an AF digital event I was told the project is still ongoing.

irishguy28

Which was exactly my point.

Why would the industry now adopt a system advanced by a handful of rival airlines?

Particularly when this doesn't really solve any problem - the existing paper tags work just fine.