how are Scamcharges calculated?
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ARN
Programs: AC UA TK FI DL
Posts: 800
how are Scamcharges calculated?
Just curious if anyone know how Scamcharges are calculated by AP?
For example, if I book a flight that has one long segment in NH or TG, but everything else in that trip is with UA, I know I will get hit with Scamcharges due to the segment with NH or TG.
For example:
YYZ-EWR UA
EWR-FRA UA
FRA-NRT NH
NRT-HKG UA
Now if I already have to pay Scamcharges for NH or TG, would the amount of Scamcharge go up a lot - if I toss in a few AC segments to the mix (removing UA component)?
For example:
YYZ-FRA AC
FRA-NRT NH
NRT-HKG NH
Are Scamcharges calculated per leg?
Or do we just get hit with something in the range of C$500 regardless of how many segments on scamcharge airlines for a YYZ-Asia trip, once there is at least one scamchargable segment on NH or TG, etc?
For example, if I book a flight that has one long segment in NH or TG, but everything else in that trip is with UA, I know I will get hit with Scamcharges due to the segment with NH or TG.
For example:
YYZ-EWR UA
EWR-FRA UA
FRA-NRT NH
NRT-HKG UA
Now if I already have to pay Scamcharges for NH or TG, would the amount of Scamcharge go up a lot - if I toss in a few AC segments to the mix (removing UA component)?
For example:
YYZ-FRA AC
FRA-NRT NH
NRT-HKG NH
Are Scamcharges calculated per leg?
Or do we just get hit with something in the range of C$500 regardless of how many segments on scamcharge airlines for a YYZ-Asia trip, once there is at least one scamchargable segment on NH or TG, etc?
Last edited by iamaho; Mar 12, 2013 at 1:04 am
#2
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: YVR
Programs: Non-status bottomfeeder
Posts: 827
Code:
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#7
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Australia and Canada
Programs: Qantas FF Plat; Virgin Aust Plat;
Posts: 799
I guess, it depends on your definition of 'scamcharges'.
If you are meaning 'YQ' - scamcharge sensu stricto and seemingly arbitrary per other posts.
But if you are meaning more like the all up extra cash charge for reward tickets, then that can and usually does include some unpleasant, but quite real and set costs such as airport-imposed passenger fees (securtity, landing, airport improvement ...).
Here are some I saw posted in another thread:
$54.20 Swiss Passenger Security and Noise Charge
$39.50 France Domestic & International Airport Tax
$21.30 Spain Departure Charge
$5.80 Spanish Security Tax
$48.40 France International Passenger Service Charge
$23.40 Thailand Domestic Passenger Service
$477.80 Fuel Surcharge
... and Canada has its own verion of many of these of course
If you are meaning 'YQ' - scamcharge sensu stricto and seemingly arbitrary per other posts.
But if you are meaning more like the all up extra cash charge for reward tickets, then that can and usually does include some unpleasant, but quite real and set costs such as airport-imposed passenger fees (securtity, landing, airport improvement ...).
Here are some I saw posted in another thread:
$54.20 Swiss Passenger Security and Noise Charge
$39.50 France Domestic & International Airport Tax
$21.30 Spain Departure Charge
$5.80 Spanish Security Tax
$48.40 France International Passenger Service Charge
$23.40 Thailand Domestic Passenger Service
$477.80 Fuel Surcharge
... and Canada has its own verion of many of these of course
#8
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Programs: UA*1K MM SK EBG LATAM BL
Posts: 23,305
It's whatever Air Canada wants to steal from you as the ticketing carrier.
Classic example is the YYZ-NRT-AKL routing on NZ/ AC.
AC should only collect for first leg, but they collect based on YYZ-AKL, which is much more
Classic example is the YYZ-NRT-AKL routing on NZ/ AC.
AC should only collect for first leg, but they collect based on YYZ-AKL, which is much more
#9
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ARN
Programs: AC UA TK FI DL
Posts: 800
Yeah I mean YQ.
Because looking at my parents ticket which involved multiple segments on scamchargable airlines, for example:
YYZ ORD AC
ORD ICN OZ
ICN HKG OZ
HKG BKK TG
BKK NRT NH
NRT YYZ AC
...YQ was $512
Then booked a flight for the partner:
BCN ZRH LX
ZRH CDG LX
CDG BKK TG
BKK CDG TG
CDG ZRH LX
ZRH BCN LX
... YQ was around the same. At $477!
So it just seem totally arbitrary!
Any ticket without a scamchargable airline involved. Then it's only the taxes involved.
But toss in one segment that involves those airlines. Then it seems to be $500 regardless? Even if it is just one segment or 6 segments?!?
-----
Just as an experiment... I went to AP website and put in the following:
YYZ CDG via AC
CDG YYZ via LH AC
... YQ of $862 ($431 per segment)
then I tried:
YYZ FRA via AC
FRA BKK via TG
BKK NRT via NH
NRT ORD via NH
ORD YYZ via AC
... YQ of $670 (total)
Makes absolutely NO SENSE!
Because looking at my parents ticket which involved multiple segments on scamchargable airlines, for example:
YYZ ORD AC
ORD ICN OZ
ICN HKG OZ
HKG BKK TG
BKK NRT NH
NRT YYZ AC
...YQ was $512
Then booked a flight for the partner:
BCN ZRH LX
ZRH CDG LX
CDG BKK TG
BKK CDG TG
CDG ZRH LX
ZRH BCN LX
... YQ was around the same. At $477!
So it just seem totally arbitrary!
Any ticket without a scamchargable airline involved. Then it's only the taxes involved.
But toss in one segment that involves those airlines. Then it seems to be $500 regardless? Even if it is just one segment or 6 segments?!?
-----
Just as an experiment... I went to AP website and put in the following:
YYZ CDG via AC
CDG YYZ via LH AC
... YQ of $862 ($431 per segment)
then I tried:
YYZ FRA via AC
FRA BKK via TG
BKK NRT via NH
NRT ORD via NH
ORD YYZ via AC
... YQ of $670 (total)
Makes absolutely NO SENSE!
Last edited by iamaho; Mar 13, 2013 at 1:52 am Reason: proper YQ amount added / experiment added
#10
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,830
Take the total per-seat fuel cost, and add a little bit:
Published Distance YYZ-LHR-YYZ: 7112 miles
Published Fuel Surcharge: $412.00
Actual Fuel Cost to AC: $398.27 (method 1)
Actual Fuel Cost to AC: $376.94 (method 2)
How to reach that amazing number, showing how it's not a fuel surcharge from their own year end finacials for 2012:
http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/in...q4_release.pdf
Method 1:
Fuel/Available Seat Mile = CASM - Adj CASM = 17.4 - 11.8 = 5.6 cents/seat-mile. However the Adj CASM also includes a few other expenses, so...
Method 2:
Available seat miles (millions) (ASM) 67,269
Fuel Litres (millions) 3,976
Fuel Cost/Litre (cents) 89.7
so it cost $3,566.4m in fuel last year to fly 67,269m seat-miles, or...
3,976m * 0.897 / 67,269m = 5.3 cents/seat-mile
How this doesn't qualify for fraud is actually somewhat beyond me. Oh, and before the AC lovers start talking about load-factor, let's remember these numbers don't take into account that the J cabin pays a double fuel-surcharge.
Published Distance YYZ-LHR-YYZ: 7112 miles
Published Fuel Surcharge: $412.00
Actual Fuel Cost to AC: $398.27 (method 1)
Actual Fuel Cost to AC: $376.94 (method 2)
How to reach that amazing number, showing how it's not a fuel surcharge from their own year end finacials for 2012:
http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/in...q4_release.pdf
Method 1:
Fuel/Available Seat Mile = CASM - Adj CASM = 17.4 - 11.8 = 5.6 cents/seat-mile. However the Adj CASM also includes a few other expenses, so...
Method 2:
Available seat miles (millions) (ASM) 67,269
Fuel Litres (millions) 3,976
Fuel Cost/Litre (cents) 89.7
so it cost $3,566.4m in fuel last year to fly 67,269m seat-miles, or...
3,976m * 0.897 / 67,269m = 5.3 cents/seat-mile
How this doesn't qualify for fraud is actually somewhat beyond me. Oh, and before the AC lovers start talking about load-factor, let's remember these numbers don't take into account that the J cabin pays a double fuel-surcharge.
#11
Join Date: Aug 2007
Programs: Aeroplan
Posts: 600
Looking at flight YYZ-CDG return: Feb 1-12, 2014
-if book into Y then YQ is $456pp
-if book into J then YQ is $826pp!
Most of the rest of the taxes/fees are the same regardless of which class booked into (exception is French Air Passenger Solidarity Tax IZ Y is $5.60 and J is $55.60) - so total for Y is $$582pp and J is $996pp plus of course the points needed! Numbers come from ita Matrix search
-if book into Y then YQ is $456pp
-if book into J then YQ is $826pp!
Most of the rest of the taxes/fees are the same regardless of which class booked into (exception is French Air Passenger Solidarity Tax IZ Y is $5.60 and J is $55.60) - so total for Y is $$582pp and J is $996pp plus of course the points needed! Numbers come from ita Matrix search
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ARN
Programs: AC UA TK FI DL
Posts: 800
The Points Guy did a good write up on the irrational nature of AP YQ...
http://thepointsguy.com/2013/03/over...axes-and-fees/
http://thepointsguy.com/2013/03/over...axes-and-fees/
#13
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC, BA, Marriott, SPG
Posts: 842
Lucky just wrote an interesting blog about miscalculations in YQ charges on American.
http://boardingarea.com/blogs/onemil...es-negotiable/
http://boardingarea.com/blogs/onemil...es-negotiable/
#15
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,331
Method 1:
Fuel/Available Seat Mile = CASM - Adj CASM = 17.4 - 11.8 = 5.6 cents/seat-mile. However the Adj CASM also includes a few other expenses, so...
Method 2:
Available seat miles (millions) (ASM) 67,269
Fuel Litres (millions) 3,976
Fuel Cost/Litre (cents) 89.7
so it cost $3,566.4m in fuel last year to fly 67,269m seat-miles, or...
3,976m * 0.897 / 67,269m = 5.3 cents/seat-mile
Fuel/Available Seat Mile = CASM - Adj CASM = 17.4 - 11.8 = 5.6 cents/seat-mile. However the Adj CASM also includes a few other expenses, so...
Method 2:
Available seat miles (millions) (ASM) 67,269
Fuel Litres (millions) 3,976
Fuel Cost/Litre (cents) 89.7
so it cost $3,566.4m in fuel last year to fly 67,269m seat-miles, or...
3,976m * 0.897 / 67,269m = 5.3 cents/seat-mile