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Poaching rhinos / elephants, etc. Is it as bad as we are told?

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Poaching rhinos / elephants, etc. Is it as bad as we are told?

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Old Apr 30, 2013, 6:01 pm
  #16  
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Originally Posted by Canuck2012
Massive population growth, combined with industrialization and resource extraction in East Africa is pushing out the animals. In the sixties, Kenya had about 8 million people, now they have over 40 million, similar case in Tanzania and Uganda.
In Tanzania, the population growth is mainly in already urbanized areas, like Dar es Salaam and Mwanza. The country's growth rate is slowly declining, averaging 2.7 percent per year from 2002 to 2012. 18 percent of the country's population growth in that decade was in the Dar es Salaam region. That region plus the heavily urbanized Mwanza region alone account for over 16 percent of the country's population.

Industrialization and resource extraction in Tanzania are miniscule compared to its potential, certainly far less than in any industrialized country.

Originally Posted by Canuck2012
When I was in Nigeria I asked where all the large animals went, such as elephants, hippos, ect... people joked that they ate them all! But, its true, they did eat them all.
Nigeria is far from east Africa.

Originally Posted by Canuck2012
Then there are projects such as the large soda ash project in Tanzania that will cause the extinction of the indigenous flamingos.
You're obviously referring to the proposed project in a wetland near Lake Natron. The project is still under environmental review. And even if it goes forward, the government has committed to the plant not disturbing the lake itself or its ecosystem, and no "extinction" of lesser flamingos would result.

Originally Posted by Canuck2012
Regarding creating charcoal (which 90% of the population depends on for cooking fuel).
Not in Tanzania. Based on 2007 data (the latest available), 22.7 percent of households in mainland Tanzania use charcoal for cooking. Refer to "Basic Facts and Figures on Human Settlements", published in 2011 by the National Bureau of Statistics in Dar es Salaam.

Originally Posted by Canuck2012
Just use a site like google earth and zoom in on Kilimanjaro, one can see the patchwork of encroachment quite clearly.
Nope. The Kilimanjaro National Park is well guarded against agricultural encroachment. What you see on Google Earth are legal and longstanding (mainly Wachagga) settlements outside the boundaries of the park.

Last edited by Austinrunner; Apr 30, 2013 at 6:24 pm
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 6:09 pm
  #17  
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Originally Posted by johan rebel
The Kruger National Park has just lost 27 rhinos in 10 days. That's to say, they have found 27 carcasses, there could be more. This in a place were at least an effort is being made to stop poaching, something that cannot be said for just about all the rest of Africa.
Kruger has a unique problem: heavy poaching from people who reside in Mozambique, which borders the park, and a reluctance of Mozambique to do anything about it.
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Old May 1, 2013, 7:22 am
  #18  
 
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A glimmer of hope - I did a morning anti poaching patrol in Kruger this morning, i am a volunteer and it is a public holiday, during our patrol we spotted a fair amount of these amazing beasts with youngsters, hopefully they will have the opportunity to grow!!! We met with the military men they have in Kruger, and they seem to have a few new plans up their sleeves, but did not want to divulge any more than that. Believe me the battle will be taken to these people.
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Old May 1, 2013, 10:49 am
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by Austinrunner
Wow. A lot of gloom and doom in this thread, which has been repeated for more than 100 years.
I'm wondering if you are just playing devil's advocate here? The Serengeti has less than 10 rhinos left and several of them were poached this very year. Their population in Tanzania is approaching ZERO. Try to find a rhino in Tanzania. About your only chance is in the Crater.

In South Africa poaching has escalated from lower levels to extremely high levels in the past couple years. Things are getting worse, not better.
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Old May 1, 2013, 1:01 pm
  #20  
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Originally Posted by FlyingRhino
hopefully they will have the opportunity to grow!!!
At current rates, the number of rhino lost to poaching in the KNP exceeds the number being born.

Johan

Originally Posted by FlyingRhino
and they seem to have a few new plans up their sleeves, but did not want to divulge any more than that. Believe me the battle will be taken to these people.
Back in the 80s there was a similar onslaught in the KNP, but then elephants were the target. That was brought under control, but the Apartheid regime in power back then could afford to be a bit more ruthless that what would be accepted today.

Johan

Originally Posted by Austinrunner
Nope. The Kilimanjaro National Park is well guarded against agricultural encroachment. What you see on Google Earth are legal and longstanding (mainly Wachagga) settlements outside the boundaries of the park.
I doubt the Kilimanjaro NP is well guarded against anything.

"An unholy alliance is reportedly being formed among wildlife poachers and illegal forest loggers who are currently wrecking havoc around Mount Kilimanjaro in Moshi, with their Amboseli counterparts in neighbouring Kenya.

The conservator in-charge at Kilimanjaro National Park, Mr Erasto Lufungulo said the network of illegal hunters and logger operates in areas striding Arusha and Kilimanjaro National Parks in Tanzania and Amboseli and Tsavo Game Park in Kenya that happen to border one-another.

Kilimanjaro National Park, established in 1973, initially comprised the whole of the mountain above the tree line and six forest corridors stretching down through the mountain forest belt.

Following a 2005 extension, the National Park now includes the whole of the mountain above the tree line as well as the natural forest which previously was under Kilimanjaro Forest Reserve.

The park is directly connected to Amboseli National Park on the North, however, corridors to Arusha National Park and Tsavo National park have of late been encroached by human activities impacting on wildlife migration.
"

Source

Two points:

- Mr. Lufungulo may well be an honorable gentleman who is doing what he can to protect the park, but wildlife authorities in Tanzania are severely under-resourced, and corruption is rife.

- agricultural activities on park boundaries can be very detrimental, as they cut off natural migration routes, in effect turning the conservation area into an island refuge. This is a major problem (and cause of inter-tribal conflict) in Tanzania, where areas previously used by pastoralists are being settled by agriculturalists. In some places, e.g. the Ngorongoro Conservation Area, the pastoralists themselves have turned to subsistence agriculture.

Johan

Originally Posted by Austinrunner
Industrialization and resource extraction in Tanzania are miniscule compared to its potential, certainly far less than in any industrialized country.
Yeah, but there is no shortage of people who want to realize that potential, and no shortage of Chinese willing to assist, environmental consequences be damned.

The situation is bad enough as is:

THE END OF THE GAME? THE DECLINE AND DEPLETION OF TANZANIAS WILDLIFE

"The best available scientific data suggests that wildlife is declining in all of Tanzanias main wildlife areas and ecosystems, including those which feature large protected areas such as national parks and game reserves."

Johan

Originally Posted by Austinrunner
the government has committed to the plant not disturbing the lake itself or its ecosystem, and no "extinction" of lesser flamingos would result.
And you take the Tanzanian government on its word?

Wow!

Johan

Last edited by oliver2002; Apr 22, 2014 at 11:06 pm Reason: please use multiquote
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Old May 1, 2013, 2:04 pm
  #21  
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Originally Posted by johan rebel
The conservator in-charge at Kilimanjaro National Park, Mr Erasto Lufungulo said the network of illegal hunters and logger operates in areas striding Arusha and Kilimanjaro National Parks in Tanzania and Amboseli and Tsavo Game Park in Kenya that happen to border one-another.
Arusha National Park and Kilimanjaro National Park do not border each other.

Originally Posted by johan rebel
Mr. Lufungulo may well be an honorable gentleman who is doing what he can to protect the park, but wildlife authorities in Tanzania are severely under-resourced, and corruption is rife.
Corruption is a big problem in Tanzania, but not among park rangers.

Originally Posted by johan rebel
agricultural activities on park boundaries can be very detrimental, as they cut off natural migration routes, in effect turning the conservation area into an island refuge. This is a major problem (and cause of inter-tribal conflict) in Tanzania, where areas previously used by pastoralists are being settled by agriculturalists. In some places, e.g. the Ngorongoro Conservation Area, the pastoralists themselves have turned to subsistence agriculture.
Which Tanzanian tribes are currently fighting each other about this issue? My point is that the Wachagga have occupied the forested southern and eastern slopes of Mount Kilimanjaro for hundreds of years. There is nothing new about it. The northern and western slopes are too dry for cultivating the crops the Wachagga subsist on (mainly maize and bananas). I have no idea what is happening in Kenya. The problem in the Ngorongoro Conservation Area is that its traditional owners, the Maasai, are increasing in population. They were evicted from the Serengeti. They were evicted from Ngorongoro Crater (except for being able to feed their cattle there during daylight hours), and now there are proposals to evict them from the NCA entirely. Where will they go then? On top of that is the recent announcement that they are being evicted from much of the Loliondo Game Reserve to make room for hunters from the UAE. There are ways to balance agricultural activities in the NCA with the needs of animals to migrate in and out of the crater. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Old May 1, 2013, 2:11 pm
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Austinrunner
Wow. A lot of gloom and doom in this thread, which has been repeated for more than 100 years.

Yes, gloom, doom and emotion... that's me! I don't deny it at all!
Why? Because I hope to actually see these animals, in the wild, in their glory or some semblance thereof. I want to see living, breathing animals enjoying life. I live around the corner from San Diego Zoo Safari park, so I can see them there, any old time, but I hope to actually go on safari, in Africa, and see them in situ.

I am no expert and many of you are clearly far more informed about the goings on in Africa than I am, so my only question to you, Austin runner, would be this: Are there more or less of these animals than there were 100 years ago? How about 100 weeks ago? 100 days? Show me those stats and make me feel happy emotions, would ya?
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Old May 1, 2013, 7:13 pm
  #23  
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That's not my job. There are lots of animals there now. Go and see them.
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Old May 1, 2013, 11:20 pm
  #24  
 
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As per the website IOL, this is just a joke, these guys got caught with 12 horns in their luggage, our law system yet again fails the country. The excuse, they could not find properly documented Vietnamese interpreters!!!

http://www.iol.co.za/illegal-rhino-h...reed-1.1508971
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Old May 2, 2013, 1:28 am
  #25  
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Guilty until proven innocent. What's really pathetic is that these men were kept in jail for 2 1/2 years without trial.
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Old May 2, 2013, 2:46 am
  #26  
 
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I agree on that statement, luckily they did get some jail time before being set completely free. 12 Rhino horns on their possession in my book, counts for being guilty of something. They will be back soon doing what they do best, destruction for 'cultural' reasons.
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Old May 2, 2013, 4:05 pm
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Austinrunner
Corruption is a big problem in Tanzania, but not among park rangers.
Maybe not amongst the lowest level boots-on-the-ground staff (although I've known them to ask for bribes), but certainly among the guys who run the show.

Johan
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Old May 2, 2013, 11:25 pm
  #28  
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They asked you for a bribe to allow you to do what exactly? How recently did this happen? Where in Tanzania?
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Old May 4, 2013, 2:56 pm
  #29  
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Originally Posted by FlyingRhino
They will be back soon doing what they do best, destruction for 'cultural' reasons.
Not quite yet, they have been rearrested.

Johan
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Old May 4, 2013, 3:34 pm
  #30  
 
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Johan what excellent news, it's just before midnight in SA, many thanks for the update. Might just have another glass of red.
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