OK, I read all these postings where you make the routings as complicated and long as possible for the cheepest fare. Don't worry I'm not a bean counter and I'm just glad that you are flying Air Canada. But if YXU-YYZ-YVR R is cheeper than YYZ-YVR R, then why don't you book your ticket starting at YXU and then just not take the DH1 flight. Show up at YYZ and if they ask come up with some story where you had unexpected business in the city and decided to originate here instead. Heck either way you end up doing the same flight out of YYZ, just one way you don't have to fly on the Dash.

Same with YYZ-HKG, you want to get the cheepest fare out of MIA, so why not buy the ticket for MIA but not take the MIA-YYZ leg?

I'm sure there is a very good reason, I just can't think of it 'cause I'm not into the pricing like all you FF's.

Just curious is all.


*******The Topic is supposed to be "from a guy NOT in reservations". Ooops. Oh well. **********

[This message has been edited by ACAvionicsguy (edited 12-16-2000).]

Technically speaking the flight x-YYZ would be considered "out of sequence". But you can get around this by cancelling the first segment and ripping out the 1st flight coupon. They they won't notice.

Now I have a question for you Avionics Boy: I went on a CP 320 again, those J class reading lights (attached to the seats) are in serious disrepair. We were in seats 2A and 2C, and neither of the lights worked, and on of them was out of socket and hanging from a wire. Any idea why they are not being maintained?

Fly Boy:

The practice Avionicsguy has described is a hidden city (I think). There are ways of catching people who do this...

1. They won't let you cancel the first segment, especially segments such as MIA-YYZ in a run MIA-YYZ-HKG, because they too, are aware of the fare differences.

2. Even if you rip out the first flight coupon, you still have the passenger receipt at the back which shows the whole itinary. So when you're checking bags at YYZ check-in, the agent looks at your pax. receipt and says, "Hang on, why didn't you check your bags in MIA?" and then... well... you have to pay the fare difference in full

Sure, there are a lot of opportunities like this all over the place, but a better way of taking advantage of them would be to catch the first flight into the originating city using a separate ticket then continue as you would.

(FYI: I have heard elsewhere on FT that check-in agents are paid to catch people with "hidden-city" tickets... )

When you told me about those lights last time, I missunderstood. I thought you meant the overhead reading lights. Sorry about that.

I think now you are talking about the snake lights similar to those on AC's 330/340. It is disgraceful that they are not being repaired. There are two reasons, in my view. CP may not have staff that go around and are are commited strictly to ensuring the interior of the airplanes are maintained. AC does and have found a huge improvment in the interior over the last 3 years. SAS found through studies that passenger confidence in the safety of the airplane was directly related to the condition of the tray tables, etc. So shortly after that study AC also took interiors seriously.

Secondly the flight attendants are not snaging the defects in the log books. Once a snag is entered in that log book, it HAS TO BE actioned upon. Either fixed or deffered until later, but either way it will be fixed eventually. So if these lights were snaged, then they would be fixed. Why aren't they snaged?

Usually one of two reasons. The stuees just don't care and turn a blind eye. Or, secondly, they are afraid of putting it in the log book. Believe it or not some flight attendants are afraid of snaging things. I can't imagine why. I know as maintenance my job depends on them snaging things and wish they would. Maybe Flygirl could give us some insight here.

That's my view on the matter.

If you book through an agent, they should be able to cancel the initial segment. Checked baggage usually isn't an issue for me. If I had to check baggage, I would tell them one of the following:

1 - I DID check-in baggage in YXU, but only checked it to YYZ cause I needed to take something out

2 - I arrived too late and took baggage to the valet cart

3 - I broke the journey in YYZ (depending on ticket type)

It is not worth them offending frequent travellers by questioning them beyond a few simple questions. And these could all be totally ligitimate excuses. I doubt there would be much complication. Besides, you can always just check-in with the machine...


(I hope this isn't another "balloon" from AC to try to make our lives more difficult)

It doesn't matter what you do (i.e. rip out the first ticket....), they have a way of finding out.

First of all, if you are doing the hidden city thing, it's obviously you are planning to save some $ which mean you are getting a highly discounted ticket, and in most case you can't cancel any segment of the ticket.

If you are a FF, they usually check you in using your FF number and I am sure they have set something in the computer to detect "using ticket out of sequence".

Doing hidden city or back to back is not illegal but violation of the contract of carriage and they have the right to charge you full fare or denied you boarding.

FYI, Southwest does not prohibit or penalize the use of back to back or hidden city tickets.

LOL - sure with some professional research they could figure it out, but the bottom line is they won't. A check-in agent is not going to be bothered to wasted everyones time asking for a microfiche search. They also cannot easily look up flight segments by ff number. All things considered, it is not hard to slip past them with this one... and again, when in doubt use the kiosk. It would issue a bording pass to a penguin if it had an aeroplan number.

In the example given,if a passenger does not take the YXU TO YYZ, we prosume the passenger is not travelling at all.Then,if the flight from YYZ to YVR is oversold ,we will give this persons seat away.Wouldn,t recommend doing this.

Hidden city travel has been monitored in the U.S. very carefully in recent years and airlines have started to bill travel agents they find using this regularly as a means of cutting prices for their clients, the full fare based on how the ticket was actually used. In some cases, they have removed their right to sell seats on that carrier.

Not using a segment for which you have been booked, particularly the originating or destination city, is fraud. No question about it and can be dealt with accordingly. Any other excuses are pretty much in the category of "my dog ate my homework", and can be seen through for what they are.

Will an airline risk losing your business? Yes, because someone who commits fraud once is likely to do it many times. And you could have your Aeroplan account cancelled and miles forefeited too.

As long as back to back tickets are actually used and all segments flown in sequence as ticketed, while they are frowned upon by the airlines as a means of reducing costs, they are not considered fraud and not subject to the same potential "punishment" to the passenger or travel agent. I know there has been much debate about this, so I posed it to AC Aeroplan people when we were in Montreal last summer as a means of doing super mileage runs. The foregoing was the answer I was given by a senior manager.

Bottom line, as long as you comply with all the terms of the issued ticket, you are within your rights to purchase and fly on those tickets. Once you violate these regs, you -- and the travel agent that sold you the ticket -- can be prosecuted, or otherwise dealt with, by the airline in question.

And by the way, Fly Boy, what the h*ll does LOL stand for?

It stands for Laugh Out Loud, dear

AC Insider: I know, what you know, which is that a passenger's onward travel gets cancelled in the computer only when they are shown as a "no show" on a previous segment in their journey. If the first segment is cancelled before the time of travel, the other booked segments will remain valid in the computer.

This does not negate what the others are saying about it technically being a naughty thing to do, &c &c, but again my point is simply that it is unlikely a check-in agent would notice this and/or kick up a fuss. Especially if the agent is about 3� feet tall and plugged into an electrical socket.

And Shareholder, choosing not to use part of a purchased ticket that is issued in your name, is not fraud. At least not in this counrty. Whoever told you that is fear mongering. It is understandable why AC would be distressed about this, but it is not something that can happen easily. The example used on this board was YXU-YYZ-someplace else. In reality, the difference in price from these two places of origin would be very close, if different at all. In fact IRL I suspect YXU would cost more. I suspect you are talking about tickets like JFK-YYZ-HKG where they originate in a bit more of a contentious place, with a more noticeable difference in price. IMO on a trip that big, it would be very dicey to pull these sorts of shananagans, as international flights seem to get more attention to detail than the 10x per day domestic runs.

Nevertheless possible, but the real question that is not being asked on this board is why!? IMO going to that sort of trouble to save an inconsequential amount of money is simply not worth it.

[This message has been edited by Fly Boy (edited 12-17-2000).]

Two impediments FlyBoy:

1) If the passenger does not fly the originating sector, AC will flag the PNR, and nail you for the higher fare if you seek to board at the intermediate point. Further, since the reticketing is being done at departure, you pay the lowest no-advance purchase fare. Generally speaking that will be Y/Y2.

Interlining won't usually help. If you fail to take the first sector, a message is sent down the line to the interlining carriers. Their PNR's will show the message as well.

The agent doesn't have to do anything. When the agent asks why you are checking in at the intermediate point, and you produce your fanciful tale, the agent will then ask you to produce your boarding pass. If you can't, then you're nicked.

If the computer says you didn't fly sector one, and you can't produce the boarding pass, then no agent is going to believe you.

2) This sort of trick is criminal. AC wouldn't press charges, but it is still criminal. (And it would be all the excuse they need to take your FF status away from you.)

[This message has been edited by AC*SE (edited 12-17-2000).]

AC*SE, this trick is "criminal"? Are you certain about that? You're saying someone could end up serving time for doing this?? That seems a bit difficult to believe.

Check AC's Y/J class fares between most North American cities. Now, that's "criminal"!!

I would call that the epitome of capitalism. Limited competition ==> set your own prices.

FewMiles..

HA! - More like Communism or National Socialism if you ask me!

Re the fare flouts: I really can't see how that could be considered criminal. If someone buys and pays for a ticket that covers the flights on which they use the ticket, and they are the person to whom the ticket is issued, this is a problem for AC, not the passenger. The rules for missing the first and last segments are too ambiguous for anything serious to come of it.

There is no onus on the passenger to "prove" that they were, or were not, on an earlier flight, or anything else for that matter. It is up to AC to "prove" that the passenger was not on the first segment, and they would have to do this before denying the passenger boarding on a confirmed flight with a confirmed seat and a "valid" ticket without compensation. The "no-show" automatic computer cancellation takes care of this in most normal situations when someone misses their flight. But to invalidate the ticket on the basis of a flight being out of sequence, AC would have to actually prove that a previous segment had not been flown, and why.

This has happened to me once when I was stuck in a queue to process excess baggage at LHR, and missed my JNB flight. I was put on a later BA flight, but bought a ticket on SAA for the next regional segment, and on the way back used a full business ticket on a regional segment for the same BA flight which my other ticket with the long haul portions had me booked in K class. Even though as far as they were concerned the K class flights out of JNB were quite obviously out of sequence, (on 3 totally different PNRs) I was not even for a moment questioned about it, and at no point did anyone attempt to offload me. They really didn't seem to know or care how I got to JNB, only that I had a valid ticket for onward travel.

Believe it or not, most passengers do not keep their bording passes, so it would be unreasonable to demand this. Ditto for baggage claim checks (where applicable) and old ticket receipts. Passengers are not obliged to keep these documents after the flights have been taken.

Air Canada is truly mad if they are trying to brand people as criminals for saving money. Remember, Milton is the one that can go to prison for 5 years for hiking fares!

And again AC*SE, anyone with access to the PNR can cancel the first segment. It will not flag anything if the booking for that segment is cancelled beforehand. And again, in any airport with a Kiosk this is not an issue, as the passenger would never have to speak to an agent in the first place.

I must stress that I personally have never done this and I have no interest ever doing it. But it IS possible, and to the best of my knowledge it is not criminal.

[This message has been edited by Fly Boy (edited 12-17-2000).]

I don't think it is "criminal" in terms of you going to serve time (necessarily), but it is still criminal in the sense that it is a breach of your agreed upon contract of carriage between you and the airline. Isn't that fraud? As AC*SE pointed out, the airline can take action by rescinding your FF account and maybe even blacklisting you.

BTW, I'm not trying to defend the airlines here. I think the prices they charge are indeed criminal.

FewMiles..