I have come to the conclusion that airlines JUST DON'T GET IT. I hold out the possibility that I am off-base, but I don't think so.

USA Today (1/26/99) reports that carriers will be in trouble in 1999 because they are adding aircraft faster that demand, and load factors will be down "by one percentage point." If revenue is that bad that filling one or two more seats on a 737 or 757 makes the difference, there are other problems!

Let me expound. I think the problem is service and comfort and not (just) fare prices. Put aside the first class and business class seats for a minute -- very few people actually pay for those seats anyway -- and let's look at coach. Some people (enough anyway) are willing to pay more for a comfortable seat, and reasonable service. Take a look at Midwest Express. All first class seats, and good dining, for a small premium in price.

Let me digress for a minute. My average round trip is 2,200 miles. I understand that the industry average revenue is 12-c per mile. My full fare coach ticket runs 40-c per mile, and my discounted ticket runs 13-c per mile, when I can use it. Now, if the average is 12-c and the lowest I pay is 13-c, and more often pay 40-c, there must be a lot of tickets sold at 5-c per mile !

Let me move back to my solution. I believe airlines should bring back a business class seating to domestic travel. Now, it only has to be reasonably comfortable -- instead of 3-3 on a 737 or 757, make it 3-2. Increase the leg room to exit-role length. Now, only seat passengers who pay full-fare coach in these seats. Now, my 40-c per mile fare is more than 3x the average fare, and I will get 30% more room -- oh yeah, add the hot meal and free drinks!

What I am getting at, is that not all travel decisions are made based upon the lowest cost alternative. I am willing to pay 40-c per mile for reasonable service, and if I want to pinch pennies and sit squished <g>, and get mustard pretzels instead of a meal, hey, I can pay 9-c per mile, and sit in the back.

Why not? If the airlines tell us that one or two seats at 12-c per mile will make or break them, then why do they not court the 40-c per mile customer with better service, and then they can make more money overall.

As I said, I think "THEY" just do not understand their business as well as they think they do.

There's a lot to comment on here regarding fares and service, but in general I agree with JGill. I still find it amazing that a number of airlines continue to put flyers paying full fare coach in the back of the plane. If the full coach fares make up only 6-7% of all fares paid (as was reported elsewhere on FlyerTalk) why are the first 10+ rows of coach always loaded with people. Granted, some of them hold elite status and some probably were seated there on departure day, but more often than not these are flyers who are buying deeply discounted tickets months in advance. Airlines should be filling planes from the back; those on discount tickets get seated way in the back while the front rows of coach are reserved for full fare flyers and elites. If space is available at departure, these flyers can move up. Most of the airlines discussed on this board try to do this but fail miserably - poor computer systems, uneducted reps, etc. The airlines are the kings of yield management and probably know in advance exactly how many full fares there will be on any given flight. If the airlines can't handle this, I'm not holding my breath for wider seats and more leg room.

I debate the front/back logic.

Before I was an elite, I always wanted the back rows - to board first before I was closed out of carry-on space.

Awww, you guys want to take all the FUN out of being an elite. I usually have to fly on the cheapest available (on my carrier of choice). Under your scenarios, I would only be able to upgrade to a downgraded business class on domestic flights.

As for loading from the back, as an elite on UA, there is almost always an empty seat next to me unless the flight is over 4/5 full, and I'm NEVER more than four rows deep into coach.

And the thing is, as an elite, I LOVE sitting in first class on a ticket that cost my company $300 next to some sucker who paid (or whose company paid) $2000. It gives me a glow of smug superiority.

Look, I get your points from your perspective, but as mostly a short-hopper my company pays A LOT per mile, even on the cheapest tix available on that route.

The real question is how much money I spend per year to travel on a particular airline and what benefit I get for it. The answer for me in 1998 (according to my accounting dept, and therefore excluding personal travel) was $13,432.98, racking up exactly 66,412 miles on one airline. That's a lot of loyalty for a short-hopper

What do I get for that loyalty? 132,824 ff miles (only including premex bonus). Or a free 1st class trip to Hong Kong, if I choose.

So for me, I think the airlines have pretty much got it right. I fly a lot, so I get to upgrade (to an albeit inferior product domestically) alot and get to fly in comfort enough to endure being stuck in coach once in a while.

So it works from my perspective. But here's the thing: UA could get that same $13,000 from ONE passenger on ONE 1st class trip to hong kong at the right time of the year. And give them about 1/5 of the benefits they give me. So from their perspective you are right and I am screwed, since if benefits were based on fare or revenue from passenger that one flight would entitle that flyer to the same benefits as I have to work all year to get.

My point is: You are right, they don't get it, AND I LIKE IT THAT WAY!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by Matt Wald (edited 01-26-99).]

I see your points NJDavid and Matt Wald. I agree that not being an elite level member would make the back of the plane more appealing at least in terms of luggage space. I haven't tallied my 1998 airline expenses so I don't know if $13K is a lot (I don't believe it is). While short-hopping does tend to raise per mile costs, it is nothing compared to paying full fare coach. I frequently travel on very short notice and have no choice but to ante up the full Y. Airlines are constricting advance purchase fares even further on many routes and there is no way around it. Try UA from IAD to SFO on less than a weeks notice. Or US from DCA to Charlotte on less than 3 weeks notice. Even attempting back-to-back tickets or a one way with a separate round-trip (and throwing away half the ticket) doesn't help. They've got ya! Three short notice roundtrips on the routes mentioned have already rung up almost $3400 this month alone. Another short notice trip looks like it will occur next week. Ugh!

>>> I LOVE sitting in first class on a ticket that cost my company $300... The real question is how much money I spend per year to travel on a particular airline and what benefit I get for it.

Perhaps it is, to some extent. But sooner or later, the yield ($/mi) and the load (%full) is really what matters to the airline.

>>>What do I get for that loyalty? ...I get to upgrade

Okay, but to do so, you must either 1) use ff miles, or 2) use an upgrade coupon. Unless I am missing something, that means that more often than not, you are sitting in coach.

It is not my intention to re-write the ff rules. I say, keep them. I am just asking the airlines to adopt a more acceptable seating plan -- width so I do not bump shoulders next to the middle seat guy -- length so that my knees do not hit the tray table. In other words, a scaled-down business class for full-fare passengers. On "my airline" I would still allow upgrades to first class.

Another thought -- I like TWA's ff plan that awards a bonus for Y-class tickets. You get miles plus 1 mile per $ spent as a bonus.

Doesn't Useless give space-a upgrades to full fare coach passengers???

As for the upgrades, i do ok when UA is only a couple months late with the certs, but my company will spring for a book of 'em once in a while if need be (and if I whine to my boss enough!) I'd say I upgrade about 3/4 to 4/5 of the time, and never fail to for a lack of certs.

I fly full-fare coach 0% of the time. It simply does not make sense. If need be (not very often as my schedule allows for more planning than some) I'll use my miles and my company will pay me generously for them.

AS for the seats, I agree. When, in coach, the person in front me puts back their seat, they are basically laying in my lap! I HATE that...

US does provide upgrades to full fare passengers, but only on certain routes. DCA to CLT, as I have learned, is not one of the routes. This is probably because no one else serves that route.

Matt, I think it's great that your firm will pay you for your FF miles. I don't think many firms will do this. How do you value the miles in these cases anyway?

>>>Doesn't Useless give space-a upgrades to full fare coach passengers???

I have asked, and have been told, "No." Official UA policy is to not grant space available upgrades to Premier members. Reason given: "they will come to expect it."

>>>"my company will spring for a book of 'em once in a while if need be (and if I whine to my boss enough!) I'd say I upgrade about 3/4 to 4/5 of the time,

Great employer! What do the certificates cost per segment ?

JGILL - another major negative from that USA Today artice is that it says that UA is planning on replacing 757's/737's/767's on hub routes with 747-100's. DOH! The 747-100 is possibly the worst plane in UA's fleet. They want to consolidate on routes that have planes leaving back to back (SFO-ORD 6:55 AM and 7:00 AM) with one 747-100. We should rebel.

They have already done that on the 3:35pm flight from ORD-SFO. It is now a 747-100 instead of a 777 at 3:45pm and a A-320 at 4pm. it is time to rebel. where do I sign???

Clarification: in my vernacular Uselsess=USAirways.

As for $ for award flights, I have not set any kind of per-mile rate or anything like that. It's just sort of a negotiable thing. For example, if all that is available is a $1800 full fare coach ticket and the lowest fare available is, say $400, I'll split the difference and get $1000 for using personal miles for the flight. It saves my company money and I never feel like I'm getting a bad deal. As I say, it doesn't happen often, though.

Recently, however, my company decided that while my ailine miles were mine no matter who paid for them, my corporate AMEX points were actually theirs, and now my AMEX points go into a company pool for use by our president to travel on award flights. Amazingly, since this happened, I've found that fewer and fewer establishments will accept AMEX and I have to use my personal First Card and have my company reimburse me! (proving the maxim: for every law, there is a loophole!)

As for the certs, they cost $250 for a book of 8-500 mile upgrades for elites, $400 for non-elites (who can only use them to upgrade from full-fare coach). So what's that come out to, 6 cents per upgraded mile (assuming you get maximum mileage out of them)? One is supposed to receive a book of 4-500 mile certs for every 10,000 miles flown, but they are ususally sent out between 1 and six months AFTER the 10,000 miles are flown...and folks wonder why there are so many UA postings!

My......ahem, excuse me, the employer of someone I know switched from AMEX to DC. He was allowed to keep his AMEX membership rewards points, but the company does not allow individuals to participate in the "Club rewards" program now that it's with Diners. He assumed this was for the company to get a better deal financially.

Amazingly, this company has seen a lot of their expenses move from corporate credit card to "cash" (meaning anything but the corporate card, including personal cards). The only place this will not work is with airfare, where employees must use the in house agent, and they must use the Diners.

[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 01-27-99).]

>>>>>>Doesn't Useless give space-a upgrades to full fare coach passengers???

Not that I have seen (now reading US instead of UA). US does offer first class for coach fares on many routes ~at time of ticketing.~ I am not aware of gate priority to fill first class with Y class ticket holders.