Why do (at least the big US carriers) limit the award tickets and then require double the usual miles to get a ticket?

I know the obvious answer, but it really doesn't make sense. If they truely intend to honor the awards, then the seat will eventually be used by an award. So maybe they found a way to half the value (by charging double points) to get an award ticket.

Really, if a seat is available, it should be always be available for a standard award.

I like the "low cost" US airline FF programs much better in this case. For example, on Southwest, as long as a seat is open, it can be used by a standard Rapid Reward. They don't try to screw their supposedly most loyal, frequent flyers by this practice.

daved: there are really many other ways to look at this. While you see airlines as charging twice as many miles for exceptions, the historical truth is that they actually give you a discount for these select awards. When these programs were first introduced, there were no 25,000-mile awards, only anytime awards from 40-50,000 miles depending on the airline program. There were no rules and you could use the award at any time there was an open seat. The crucial part of this - no member ever complained in the orginal programs that 40-50,000 miles was too much for these type of awards. I know, I was there and reported on these programs. In the late 80s they did introduce saver awards with restrictions as you noted at 20-25,000 miles. Why? Hard to say but i think if you consider that 84% of all awards redeemed of any kind are the saver awards at 20-25,000 miles, it does appear that the average memebr of these programs is quite well served and taking advantage of the award discounts. It's really all a matter of perspective - are these awards with airlines half-full or half-empty? I'd say I'm much better off today than before when the only option i had was awards at 40-50,000 miles. True, some times i have to pay full price, but the times i can snag an award at 25,000 miles, I'm pretty relieved that the miles i have just went farther.

As for Southwest. They deserve all the awards they have won such as the Freddies. But for my self, i really am not interested in the idea of any seat any time. Why? Simple. I view using my miles "when" I want to more importnat than "how" I want to. I've saved millions of miles for those years when i don't fly as much or for my retirement days for rainy days when times aren't too kind. That's nice that Southwest will give me a seat any time I want, but the ones I want are 3-10 years from now and as you know, that perfect award you see with Rapid Rewards is only good for 12 months and it's gone - no exceptions. I like the odds of using a 25,000-mile award 84% of the time plus having the ability to save them for as long as i want versus the 12-month rule.

The bottom line - there';s a program perfect for every member willing to research and measure their wish list against the benefits available - for you it's Southwest, for me it's American or Northwest. While you may think my program choices are from those that "screw" their loyal members,I guess I'm pretty happy because i remember when my only choice was to pay 40-50,000 miles for an award. And while the concept of loyalty is fairly strong - i have to confess that i have not always been that loyal to every program i belong to - i have and continue to look for the better benefits and awards and am willing to love em' and leave em'. I know of very few members who have never looked at another program. The concept of loyalty should certainly reflect a two-way street.

Therefore, all Iraqi should stop complaining about everything. After all, the historical truth is that you would be killed if the ruling clan didn't like anything about you.

Look at Southwest. If they have a seat, they will let you redeem an award. No if, ands, or buts. Gordo, Leo, Carty: stop being like Saddam.

seat 50J: Not sure i understand your point. Sometimes there is far too much emotional baggage on the idea that a seat is or isn't available. Doc may be able to locate this, but a few months ago a reporter posted on FT looking to interview members for yet another story that "Johnny can't ever use his awards." The interesting thing, if you were to read that thread, is that the reporter was basically booed off the site by members who pointed out again and again their most positive experiences with award redemptions - many reporting that they have never had a single problem at all redeeming an award and scolded the reporter for starting the story with the idea that no one can ever get the award they want. It was really an enlightening thread since for those that posted on it - there is no problem with award redemption as you and daved seem to imply.

My point is that i'm willing for an occasional imppasse with an award use in exchange to banking them year after year (vs. Southwest). It's apparent we're all happy with our own personal choices - and what's wrong with that. As for the insistance that the other programs are all Saddam's, well....

Hope the airlines don't "devalue" your miles during the next 10 years. Also, hope your airline of choice is not in chapter 11. Look at the United board a while back and follow the posts of people scrambling to use their miles for fear of ending up with nothing.

It's this guiding premise that has made InsideFlyer a useful tool for so many years.

Back to the original premise . . . why are the discounted awards often so diffucult to obtain? Two reasons:

(1) From the airlines' perspective -- put on your wannabe airline CEO hat for a minute (e.g. pretend you are Avek00) -- why would you want to give away a seat on a flight, especially on a longhaul flight in a premium class if there is even the slightest chance that in doing so, you might prevent a sale of that same seat to a paying customer?

(2) From the same perspective, why not charge as many miles as the market will bear, therby clearing extra liability off the books, particularly when your consumers are completely at your mercy? Certainly with regard to revenue tickets, this is not the case -- many of us are price sensitive -- but with frequent flier awards, the airlines control the market with an iron fist, subject to only a scintilla of market pressure.

Do I like this any more than you? Heck, no. I'd love to travel downunder in a first class suite for only 5,000 miles, but I also understand why the airlines' frequent flier programs are the way they are. The only solution is to vote with your feet: boycott airlines that don't cater to your needs as Randy suggests. For me, this means no flying on BA because I can only get 25% of the mileage for my usual peasant class travel, and no DL because by booking only the cheap seats, I probably couldn't qualify as an elite if I flew around the world every day!

[This message has been edited by cAAl (edited 08-01-2003).]

Airlines charge more miles for awards that would be displacing paying passengers.

They charge fewer miles for awards that claim seats they believe would otherwise go empty.

Those are broad generalizations, and probably not true in 100% of cases, but nevertheless seem like at least a useful freamwork for understanding why there are capacity controls on saver awards.

Sure, miles may get used eventually. But airlines want them to be used for seats they wouldn't otherwise sell. They also don't want a person to choose to redeem miles for a flight they'd otherwise pay top dollar for. Makes sense to me.

That having been said, as long as I've had a little bit of flexibility in flight times (and for F awards to SYD, 1-2 days flexibility in travel days) I've always gotten what I wanted. Guess I'm lucky.

Everyone should give their business to the airline that provides them what they want -- whether putting a premium on non-stop flights, cheap fares, upgrades, or availability for award redemptions.

Southwest has a great program for folks that value its benefits. For my award redemption, I don't really want domestic coach tickets... most of the time.

(I've actually redeemed saver Y awards twice in my life: once before I even knew about F awards! When the only thing I knew was 25k miles = a free ticket. And then to go to the Freddies in COS this year because UA operates RJs ORD-COS.. no reason for an F award. But I got upgraded DCA-ORD anyway!)

I want to spend my miles for things I wouldn't otherwise be able to pay for. I want to fly in F to SYD, PPT, CNS, etc. Rapid Rewards (or TrueBlue, or A-Plus Rewards, or whatever) simply won't do that for me.

Let a thousand flowers bloom and that sort of thing!

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View from the Wing: A blog about Free Miles and Free Markets

I do actually want to take slight exception to the position that I think I'm hearing from Randy that because mileage prices for award tickets used to be higher, we should think of capacity control awards as a 'discount'.

(I do know he's saying that they are an enhancement, because they're something that didn't exist at some point in the past. And I don't disagree with that.)

25k 'saver' domestic economy awards are the "standard" -- when airlines raise their award redemption costs, they have been loathe to touch that 25,000 mile award. It's the benchmark that consumers have come to expect. Take a look at American's recent increase in award prices. That 25,000 mile award is still there.

Most of the flying world knows only "It takes 25,000 miles for a free ticket." Forget upgrade awards, international F awards, and awards free of capacity controls. People expect their free ticket to California or Montana or wherever in the US for 25,000 miles and they expect to be able to use it. Raise that price (remove the 'discount') and there'll be real heat from members -- and not just well-informed Flyertalkers and readers of Inside Flyer, either.

25,000 miles for a coach award is the benchmark. Lower award redemption costs are benefits. But don't think of 25k as a discount.

That's a perspective that many of us forget in the "my program is better then yours" discussions we get in around here. As for me, my paid flights tend to be MDW to SDF (visiting my parents) and my SWA freebies (RR tickets and CP) are to FLL and LAX (visiting kids in college and my wife's relatives). As long as my last kid selects an SWA city ( )we'll keep this plan.

Randy, you've also answered a question I asked in another thread, "Why have 25 million miles just sitting in an account?" It seems that, for you, it's kind of a "travel IRA". Just remember, "You can't take it with you!"

As to the inflation/devaluation discussion, we need to keep in mind that it was a lot tougher to gather miles than back in the old days. That makes those 25k awards seem even a better deal!

(FWIW: SWA will extend a Reward Ticket by twelve additional months for $50. Still doesn't get us to retirement.)
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"I was once dissappointed that I didn't get an upgrade, then I saw a homeless man without shoes. Somehow, the upgrade didn't seem all that important."

[This message has been edited by ejmelton (edited 08-01-2003).]

So will the others. You just have to have 40K-50K miles instead of the 25K. On US, when you book a "Premium" award, you are displacing a full Y ticket. That means you're eligible for advance upgrades and other full Y privleges even without any status. There are people over on the US board that will advocate redeeming a Premium coach (50K) award and using upgrades when you can't get a free Discounted First Class (50K) ticket. If there's a seat on the plane, the 50K Coach award will get it, and if you have unlimited upgrades (top tier FF), the two awards end up being the same thing.

WN is good for some people. I personally like to leave the country every once in a while, and so they don't work for me, yet they're still a second or third option depending on the situation. I actually bought a walk-up full price last minute WN fare a few weeks ago for a friend that was in a tight bind.

As Randy said, pick those you like. I have a friend that's AA Gold and earns WN RR free flights...he picks whichever of the two works better for him (interestingly enough AA has had better prices and timing recently for his flight pattern).

Honestly, it sounds like some people are mad because they wanted a 25K award at the last minute to go to the Superbowl/Mardi Gras/some other major event or a weekend trip to Hawaii for 35K. The high desirability awards (and routes where they sell most of the seats) are going to be hard to get award travel. I personally travel in the off and shoulder seasons for the better rates and availability.

Interesting perspectives.

Thanks to Randy for the history. I have been flying for about 20 years, but only in the last 12 years have I been hooked into the wonderful world of FF. I did not realize the original awards were in the 40-50K range, and the saver awards came later. For me the current status makes sense from the airlines' perspectives, for reasons cited above. I also agree that, although the award miles have gone up, it is much easier to accrue miles through partners. Most of my flights are short hauls, but I have accumulated 500K (over several airlines) through credit cards, telephone, etc. So in the end it's a wash.

But sometimes I wonder just how many seats are set aside for saver awards. I have often found it difficult to get a seat on routes that I think are not especially high demand at the time (who is flocking to PHX in August?).
Unlike many FT posters, however, I do not see FF miles as a birthright, but a very pleasant bonus for flying (I stand ready to be burned at the stake as a heretic )


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Da DOK

Since we are taking exception I think although your analysis sounds fine calling 25,000 miles the benchmark has a small flaw in it. When this was put out there and was readily available a 25,000 redemption was a benchmark. Now as I read the boards it is getting harder and harder to secure a flight with 25,000 miles. You have to start looking 330 days in advance to secure said flights. I would much rather see the airlines raise the bar a little to 30,000 or 35,000 and have the seats more readily available. When everything else goes up and this stays the same then something has to give somewhere else. In this case it has produced a lot fewer available seats. Which do we want seats at a slightly higher price or fewer seats but a bigger discount? I vote for seats. The discount does me no good if I can't secure a seat within a reasonable time frame of the time I would like to travel.

Just another way of looking at it. As Randy says each flyer has a different need so different programs have appeal for each of us.


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"A day without Points/Miles is like a day without SUNSHINE"

He only seats I know of that need 330 days are some popular Europe routes Australia and Hawaii. If you are using to go to Florida or CA for Vacation or somewhere to visit relatives, I cant remember having a hard time redeeming. As long as you are not in a bind with rigid schedules you will be fine. Exception might be Delta who seems to give out points like water.

The airlines do this because their shady accounting makes it profitable for them to do so.

To elaborate, when you earn points, the airlines don't recognize the full liablity of issuing points to you. Instead, they make some very aggressive assumptions about the availability of awards, the delay in redeeming an award, the number of people who will never accrue enough points to redeem an award, etc. This is wrong on so many levels. First, they essentially tie so many strings to the award that its difficult to say that they intend to honor the award. Second, the fact that they record a liability equal to perhaps 2-3% of the value of the award bears this out. Next, they obfuscate this fact in their reports to shareholders. Worse yet, they don't fully disclose the extent to which their promise is misleading because of capacity and other restraints.

If you look at the case of sales of points to credit cards, you can see what kind of financial incentive there is to keep this deception up. If the airline sells 25,000 points to American Express at $.02 a point, or $500, it books $500 of income but records a future liability of perhaps just $10 because of the assumptions discussed above. Bingo - $490 profit! If instead the airlines were required to book a $500 liability for those points, they would have a bigger incentive to have folks redeem and get the liability off their books.

Randy's history lesson is appreciated but I believe disingenuous. How is the fact that an award originally cost 40K or 50K miles in the 1980's be relevant to people who have a justified expectation of redeeming a reward based on promises and activity undertaken in reliance on those promises in 2003? The fact is, airlines "promise" an award today for only 25K miles, but do a poor job of disclosing the limits to their promise. Oh sure, they mention blackout dates etc but they never tell you how many awards they make available on flights and other shady practices. (e.g. DL limits European flights to departures from certain "Gateway" cities).