With special guests Dr. Mark R. Rosekind, Former Sleep/Jet Lag Research Director at NASA. Sponsored by British Airways.
Randy
Welcome to yet another FlyerTalk Live! chat session. Tonight we're pretty lucky to have a chat hosted by British Airways about a topic that many of us long distance frequent flyers have just never figured out. I myself have tried the sunshine thing, the 'no jet lag' pills and more. Most of the time I end up toughing it out and catch up on my reading at 3 a.m. - wherever I'm at.
Dr. Rosekind
thanks! look forward to chatting!!
FlyerTalk Live!
This question was submitted earlier by Alex McGowan: I tend to push myself through a business trip with a few hours sleep a day until a weekend (or I return home) then catch up on missed sleep. This seems to work for me but would I be better off if I tried to sleep more regularly through the trip?
Dr. Rosekind
Yes, getting more sleep would improve your performance and alertness during your trip. In a recent project we did with business travelers, people rated themselves as extremely productive but their actual performance was reduced 20% while on a trip . So, the more sleep, the better your performance and alertness will be! Great question.
FlyerTalk Live!
This question was submitted earlier by Eric L. Tompkins: When traveling west to east more than five time zones, in order to be as productive as possible the morning after arrival, is it better to sleep on the plane or stay awake and sleep upon arrival?
Randy
wow! five time zones....
Dr. Rosekind
another good one . . . If you are leaving at night and flying during your "regular" sleep time, then sleep on the airplane will probably be better from a body clock perspective. If you get more than 2 hrs less sleep than your usual amount on the airplane, then upon arrival take a short nap, either 45 mins or less, or if you have the time upon, around 2 hrs will give you a boost but not interfere with your sleep that night. And a comment about time zones, the more time zones crossed the more disruption--sleep is even more important!
Sandy
How do you all handle sleeping on a plane? I have found the possibility of sleep to be next to none. I have tried no alcohol, lots of water, etc., but doesn't seem to work.
Dr. Rosekind
one thing is to start the flight slightly sleep deprived, this builds a pressure to sleep and increases your chances to sleep; also control the environment. Use eyeshades, layer clothing for temp control, earplugs or headphones for noise and good not to drink alcohol but do stay hydrated! good questions.
FlyerTalk Live!
This question was submitted earlier by Dennis Morgan: Your introductory email notes that half of all travelers do nothing to manage sleep and jet lag on a trip. I would put myself in that category. What can I do to manage sleep? Also, would you recommend forgoing the nice amenities of business class service (food, drink, movies) to commit to sleeping on a flight?
Dr. Rosekind
There is no question that doing something can help you sleep better and perform better when on a trip. First, have a plan-from before your trip to specifics during your trip. For example, usually the worst night of sleep for travelers is the night before they leave! So getting more sleep that night and not starting the trip with a sleep debt will be helpful . . .
FlyerTalk Live!
This question was submitted earlier by Arpie: "Wondering what your thoughts are on some of the jet lag gimmicks I've seen over the years - the flashlights on the underside of your knees types of things. Are there really things like this that have been proven to work but are simply just too cumbersome for the average traveler to use? Thanks for your time, good topic."
Dr. Rosekind
A great question! It is amazing what can be claimed vs. what actually works or has data to show the real effects. Light is a very powerful cue to help set our internal body (circadian clock) and there was even a paper showing that light behind the knee affected the clock. But when examined closely, this work was never replicated and the effects were so minimal that is has been seriously questioned. This is just one example where there can be a real effect-light can affect the body clock, but it may not be practical or effective in actual use . . .
Randy
oh oh, the flash lights.....
Dr. Rosekind
yes, people really do this stuff! I'm always open to new approaches but ask to "show me the data", especially before people spend time and money on these things. Especially when you don't know if they actually work to help.
Randy
maybe I could jump in here.
Dr. Rosekind
jump in!
Randy
Mark, just how many studies are done on the topic of jet lag? You mention "studies"
Randy
Is it a topic that is always being looked at?
Dr. Rosekind
NASA has been doing research on this since 1980 and has 1000s of studies on It.
Randy
WOW! I think we need a next question.
russ
I frequently travel to India, and when I arrive I must sync with their time zone, 9.5 hours ahead. My strategy has been to sleep all I could on the flights over, and then try sleep at least some after we arrive (the flight gets in around 1:00 AM). I then force myself onto their time...with some success... Finally, I try to exercise each day in the morning or afternoon, which seems to give me some lift. Nevertheless, around 4-5 in the afternoon, for the first 4-5 days there, I feel dead. Is there anything else that I can do?
Dr. Rosekind
First, everyone is programmed for being sleepy around 3-5 in the afternoon, also, keep up the exercise, it will improve your adjustment and alertness. Try caffeine . . . 100-200mg will boost alertness, that's about 1-2 cups of coffee; also stay physically active and get sunlight; good one!
FlyerTalk Live!
This question was submitted earlier by Gabriela McCoy: I travel across time zones quite frequently. In order to adjust to the jet lag, I usually take a sleeping pill for the first 5 nights of my trip. I find this helps me to adjust more quickly. Can regularly taking sleeping pills be addictive? Do you recommend using natural sleep causing herbs rather than over the counter sleeping pills? Do you have any other suggestions which may help me sleep through the first few nights when my body is used to being awake?
Dr. Rosekind
in the old days, 10 yrs ago, sleeping pills could be addictive and make sleep worse; now there ones that are safe and effective. Use a sleeping pill that has a short half life (only lasts a few hrs in the body) . . . test the lowest dose at home to see how you do before using it on a trip. Using it a few nights while in transition can be very effective! most natural :remedies" have no data about whether they actually do any good and since most are not regulated by the FDA, you don't know what you are actually taking. Also consider good sleep habits to help sleep. Have regular sleep routine before bed to cue your body for sleep 2 hrs before sleep--no alcohol, exercise or caffeine. Use a relaxation skill to unwind or if you wake up and control the environment. another good one.
This question was submitted earlier by H.R. Hidell, III: I have a question regarding not just sleep but the entire activity of maintaining a travel "boi" system. It seems to me that sleep on a plane is only part of the overall equation of how one feels. I travel anywhere from 300,000 to 400,000 miles per year. Usually between the US, Asia and Australia. I sleep about 4 to five hours on the plane (I fly BA because of the "beds" in business and first) and read the balance of say a 12-hour flight. When I arrive to my destination usually between 7 and 8:00 am, I go to my house or hotel, take a shower and go to the office, work a full day, go to dinner and into bed by 9:30 PM. I find that I get a full night's sleep, have adjusted to the time change can work full days and be productive. If I get to my destination, go to bed and sleep, I find it is days before I become really functional and I sleep poorly. Why would there be such a difference in my "condition?"
Dr. Rosekind
Many experienced travelers like you have learned over time what works best for their body. What you describe that works for you, is that you get a core amount of sleep on the flight (and this sleep is enhanced by being flat and in the BA first/business class beds) and this is enough relief the sleep pressure and allow the next period of work/reading. Then by staying awake through the day, you build the sleep pressure that will allow a good night's sleep when you go to bed at 9:30pm local. When you get in and sleep, you probably relief the sleep pressure so that it is not high enough when you try and go to sleep that night. And one very important point you raise is having a system to manage sleep, jet lag, and alertness while driving. There is no one magic bullet that is a "cure", so having a plan and using a variety of strategies will be most effective.
SylviaCaras
So, about light, keep the cabin shades up to help the time adjustment? Despite the crew wanting to darken the cabin?
Dr. Rosekind
Actually, it depends on direction of flight and time zones crossed. Getting light in your usual afternoon time will shift your clock westward light in your "morning time will shift you eastward, so, based on internal body clock time decide if shades up or down will help adjust to where you are going. Also, it can take 48-72 hrs for your clock to adjust so, for a short trip, your body clock will stay on home time!
FlyerTalk Live!
This question was submitted earlier by William: We read a lot about diet and exercise as part of this sleep/jet lag issue. In your experience, is there such a thing as mind over matter - in other words could a traveler simply overcome the disorientation of long distance travel mentally?
Randy
I like this question - the Iron man theory.
Dr. Rosekind
great question; jet lag is physiological related to sleep and circadian rhythms . . . it is in your head but you can not "will" it away!
Randy
darn it....
Dr. Rosekind
usually people think they are better off than they really are . . . so they belief they are doing well but their performance is really off!
FlyerTalk Live!
This question was submitted earlier by Ben K.: Dr. Rosekind, I have used a program from several years ago in a book "Overcoming Jet Lag" by Charles F. Ehret. It involves a rather complex series of meals, doses of coffee, etc. It does seem to work fairly well. Is there any newer research or a less complex program to alleviate jet lag?
Dr. Rosekind
Cornell has done 2 studies testing this diet. In one, the diet affected sleep equal to a placebo condition, in the other, the diet actually made sleep worse! There is no good evidence that changing diet helps with jet lag; so good nutrition is the best but do consider what time zone your stomach is on. Are you eating a big dinner when your stomach is expecting a light breakfast?? eat to home time until your body has adjusted. good one!
Tennisbum
Can you list some OTC sleeping pills (at least the main ingredient if you don't want to mention brand names) that have a short half-life? And what would be appropriate small dosages?
Randy
Here's where the "Dr." thing comes in...
Dr. Rosekind
the main ingredient is an antihistamine . . . they make you drowsy; all about the same but they have long half lives and can make you groggy for up to 10 hrs or so . . .
Randy
never knew that...thanks.
Dr. Rosekind
read the label for the antihistamine and take the lowest dose possible. Also, test it at home, not on a trip to see how you react!
FlyerTalk Live!
This question was submitted earlier by Jose L.: What is your best advise for someone who suffers from sleep apnea on getting some rest during a transatlantic flight?
Dr. Rosekind
for all . . . sleep apnea is a breathing disorder when you can not sleep and breath at the same time! there are many treatments for this and they help with the health and safety risks of apnea. If you use CPAP, a breathing machine, then you raise a question that is important because you probably won't be using it on the flight. See your sleep physician to see if your apnea is positional; it maybe that sitting up could be helpful; also, be ready to deal with the disturbed, apnea sleep when you arrive by getting a good night with the machine!
Irish
Can you explain the basics of circadian rhythms a little, as in the basics of sleep cycles and performance?
Dr. Rosekind
circadian rhythms are 24 hr rhythms controlled by an area in the brain (suprachiasmatic nucleus in the hypothalmus! or SCN). The SCN controls every activity in our body on a 24 hr basis . . . programming us for activity during the day and sleep at night. Modern jet travel moves our internal circadian to a new time zone and it is this disruption that creates jet lag, including our disturbed sleep it can days, even weeks for our internal clock to adjust to a new time zone; depending on direction of flight and number of zones crossed! So, the clock will also control when you are alert, sleepy, hungry, good/bad mood, performance . . . everything is controlled and programmed on a 24 hr basis by this clock. The most powerful cue that tells the clock what time it is . . . light! keeps our clock running on time in our home environment.
FlyerTalk Live!
This question was submitted earlier by Michael Halley : Since it is recognized that travelers need sleep, why not create a separate, economically feasible, cabin/section for business travelers who really only want to sleep? Simply provide several bottles of water, pillows, and blankets, and then leave the cabin in darkness and silence for the entire trip. In this same line of thought, what would be an Ideal schedule to keep several days before, during and shortly after such travel?
Dr. Rosekind
First, love it . . . sleeper class! This is why the environment in BA business and first class is critical . . . a flat bed, controlled environment . . . great chance for real sleep and as you point out, why not think about having a section just for sleepers! Regarding schedule . . . this is complicated but a few ideas: get max sleep before sleep, plan your trip by when you will eat before flight (in a lounge?), plan sleep for on the flight and use the amenities like controlling when you eat, privacy, etc. (if this is available); and get max sleep during your trip, sometimes adjusting the circadian clock can be difficult or even make things worse, so the more you manage the sleep, at least one major factor is being addressed!
This question was submitted earlier by Dr. B. Bose: Q1 Is disruption of circadian rhythm responsible for the sleep disorder following flights across 7 time zones? Q2.Is it more difficult to adjust if one loses time e.g. going east from North America to Europe? I find that it takes 1 hr per day to adjust. (e.g.) 7 days for 7 hr time difference. Q3. Please comment on the role of Melatonin in the adjustment process.
Dr. Rosekind
Yes, the clock has major disruption after crossing more than 3 time zones. Typically, going east is harder for clock adjustment, than going west which is easier; why our clock actually runs longer than 24 hrs . . . so easier to stay awake longer than go to sleep earlier flying east is going against our internal clock, going west is flying with the clock; also, the adjustment rate will actually depend on your light exposure in the new time zone. Melatonin is a natural hormone that can promote sleep and affect our circadian clock. What has been found is that low doses of .5 or fewer mgs can be helpful in getting to sleep but only if taken when your brain is not normally releasing it; which is about 2-3 hrs before your regular bedtime and some people use it to try and adjust their circadian clock but timing is everything. Take it at the wrong time and your body clock is in London instead of Narita!
avion
How does cabin temperature impact sleep? I've been on so many flights where it has either been too hot or too cold. Is temperature something that airlines consider when trying to deliver a good night's sleep?
Dr. Rosekind
it ends up that cooler temps actually promote better sleep . . . think about this when you arrive; get that AC on quickly if needed on the plane, wear layers so you can control your temp . . . often it feels like they warm up the cabin and it can, along with that regular hum of the engines be cues for falling sleep.
FlyerTalk Live!
This question was submitted earlier by Carl: Wondering your thoughts on the fact that airlines seem to be spending a whole lot of money on those guys that fly first class but there doesn't seem to be any attention to the very same jet lag problems that us guys in coach go through. any thoughts on the 'economy' way to overcome jet lag?
Dr. Rosekind
ahh, the challenges of modern air travel! . . .
Randy
yea, what about "us" guys.
Dr. Rosekind
just like in first or business, the better the environment the better the sleep so, think about using eye shades, ear plugs, clothing layers and most important have a plan for when you will stay awake, when you will try and sleep, use caffeine, or be physically active. Also, very important to work the environment you have . . . like to sleep against the window or have room on the aisle!
Dr. Rosekind
and remember, there is more that you do to help . . . good sleep before you leave on the trip, and planning for strategies when you arrive at destination.
skye1
What if sleep on the plane isn't an option? For me, I'm 6'6", with an athletic build, and if I'm not in first or business, or a really, really good exit row, sleep just isn't happening in coach for me. So, for people that just can't sleep on the plane, what do you suggest? (mod: tried to submit this question earlier today, but was having Internet connection problems & not sure if it went thru)
Dr. Rosekind
great question . . . I'm 6'4" and fully relate to this . . .
Dr. Rosekind
so, plan on not sleeping and focus on the strategies that will help you be more alert and perform better when you arrive.
FlyerTalk Live! experiences a clipping problem at the very end of this session. We will attempt to complete the answer to this last question. In the meanwhile, we extend a huge thanks to Dr. Rosekind and British Airways who sponsored this evening session.