This is an airplane, not a sleazy date.
 

How do you handle it when the person sitting next to you on a small plane has their arms or legs so far into your space that they touch you the entire flight? (I do not mean somebody whose size makes this happen.)

I admit, I go the borderline passive-aggressive route:

* Lean down to get something out of my carryon and force them to move their body out of my space (with a polite "excuse me" if necessary)

* Cross my legs in my space and "accidentally" tap their body parts that are in my area.

* Put my tray table down and start working on my laptop.

Things of that nature usually work, and then I can reclaim my space with my body.

That usually works for me as well. I had a guy in the middle seat whose elbow kept nailing my lower arm as it rested on my lap. I had been giving him the complete benefit of the arm rest as he had the middle seat, but after a while, it got really annoying. Every time he moved a fraction, I reclaimed my airspace and the armrest. What a relief.

What do you do? You handle it directly since you've surmised that he's doing it on purpose. Since you've described this to be someone who might be coming on to a woman (the sleazy date verbiage), you tell the person that he's touching you and that he needs to please stop it immediately. Done.

+1. It usually works well, plus it gives me some amusement during the flight.

Along with Analise, I am wondering if there was a specific near-groping event that prompted this thread, or just the usual female irritation at men who cannot seem to confine themselves to the space allotted to them? (The guys who splay their legs as far apart as possible while sitting on the NY subway come to mind.)

Not everyone is comfortable with such a direct approach, I think that's clear from some of the previous posts. Some women, and some men, too, were raised with different cultural norms and are not comfortable being confrontational, even when they might be said to have a right to such an attitude - as in the situation described by the OP.

Depending on the length of the of the flight, I might leave my seat and discretely ask the FA to change my seat if possible, explaining why as part of the request. For a short flight, I might say something like "I know these seats are small, and none of us have much space, but I'd really appreciate it if you could keep your hands in your space." If that failed, or the male pax became angry/more aggressive, I would ring the call bell and in a very clear voice explain the FA that the pax next to continued to touch me against my wishes and I'd like to report his behavior as sexual harassment and be moved to a new seat immediately.

What I would not do is grit my teeth and tolerate a stranger touching me repeatedly.

The passive aggressive route can certainly be amusing. A few other things come to mind, like yawning a lot with your arms spread out or shifting things about and a few "excuse me's". If one weren't attempting ladylike behavior, why, there's always that chance that you could be the passenger who happens to fall asleep on someone's shoulder, snore, and drool all at the same time.

BTW, I don't like it when people crowd my space when awake but find it preferable to strangers who crowd my space when they're asleep. I'm loathe to wake someone who is asleep because they probably aren't trespassing on purpose and it just makes for a really awkward "do or don't I" debate. Indecisive awkward like when I'm at a window and need to use the bathroom but my row mates are solidly asleep.

Who is comfortable being confrontational? Maybe some are but for most, it's anything but comfy. If someone were touching you unintentionally, then I'd go with the passive advice too.

That is turning it into a HUGE deal IMHO. For me, that is MUCH more uncomfortable than speaking up directly. Also, if I like my seat (I prefer aisle close to the front of the plane) and have my carryon bags above me, I don't want the FA to move me to some middle seat in the back of the plane. If anyone should move, and you have done all you can to stop this scum from harrassing you, HE should be removed from his seat by the FA, not you.

Just my 2 cents.

Now I never thought about drooling! ;)

Well, yes, that's rather the point. If someone is touching me without my permission and refuses to stop or become more aggressive when requested to stop, I do see it as a "HUGE deal" and I would certainly ask the FA to intervene for my protection. And in a question between getting away from the groper and being nitpicky about exactly in which seat I sit, my priority is to move away from the groper. If the FA wishes to try to make him move instead, well, that's not a battle I personally want to start.

And what do you do if "speaking up directly" doesn't work?

You didn't start the battle. He bothered you.

The 2 or 3 times it happened to me, speaking directly has ALWAYS worked. There are PLENTY of people around you to hear what is happening. Nothing like exposing the man as a pervert to get everyone's attention. If you would rather quietly move to an inferior seat instead, that is of course up to you. We all do things differently.

"Um, do ya mind??"....after bumping the body part that is infringing on your space.

Bobette

Whoa. You ladies don't like this?

By the way, "How yoooou doin?" :)

Simple and succinct ^

Yes, there was a specific incident that prompted this. I was seething when I wrote it and came back later and edited it, before anybody had replied.

At one point I pointed at his spread-wide-open-knee-in-my-space that was causing me a backache from having to strain away from him and asked, "Can you please put that back in your space?" He did, for a few minutes, then it was right back... :(

Sometimes when that sort of thing happens I just push back, literally. (Another piece of the passive-aggressive approach.) There comes a point when you just don't give a s*** anymore whether your knee and his knee are touching, or whatever--if it's happening anyway, you might as well be as comfortable as possible and not give yourself a backache trying to shrink yourself to half your normal size. So you spread out as far as possible too. You may find it works wonders. Just go ahead and shove.

The problem is that women are raised to be too accommodating. For once, DON'T be, and you'll be amazed at how satisfying it is.

This happens to me a LOT and it's usually a man who infringes on my space, seldom a woman. Direct confrontation will sometimes resolve for a short time as noted above, but it also makes for an edgy rest of the flight (which can almost be worse for long haul). I usually try the passive agressive approach with a little pushing if I'm not getting anywhere, but it's frustrating. Why can't people just stay in their own space? If I wanted to touch you, I would be dating you or married to you!

I love the way you handled this. It stinks that it happened at all, but I love your comment, "Can you please put that back in your space?"

I would probably do the passive aggressive thing, though my "passive aggressive" methods tend to be somewhat aggressive, LOL, so it's better to just say what you think in a diplomatic fashion.

Also, you can often let someone know how you feel without saying a word - if, for example, someone was impinging upon my armrest real estate in a way that was uncomfortable for me, my method would look something like, "look down at arm area where offense is occurring; sigh audibly, shake head." And the look would get increasingly pained and annoyed. This has worked for me a lot in the past, but eventually, if they don't get the hint, you can always just look at the person and say, "Excuse me, this is uncomfortable for me. Do you mind?"

GG

I forgot about this thread and as I reread it, I'm astonished that being passively aggressive seems to be the preferred choice of "action" (and I use that word loosely) of the majority here. I'm at a loss for that. If you're being impeded upon by some piece of scum, why be afraid of having an uncomfortable flight and thus do little passive "tricks" in hopes that the scum will get the idea. The fact that he spreads himself out shows that he is purposely ignoring what it means to be respectful to the person next to him.

Nip it in the bud. Do you think if a man felt he were being intruded upon in some way that he would be passively aggressive? So why should any woman? Why must you be a martyr?

Is it generational? I wasn't raised to be stepped on. Am I the only daughter of a feminist? ;)

Again, to each her own. This thread has been quite an eye opener.

Could've fooled me :rolleyes:

I consider myself a staunch feminist. That doesn't mean that I enjoy confrontation with strangers I'll be sitting next to for who-knows-how-many-hours, regardless of who created the problem.

If I can handle a situation diplomatically, I would much prefer to do so, assuming that the person I'm dealing with might not be being deliberately rude. Sometimes men aren't aware that they've been socialized to take up more room and be aggressive about their space, just as sometimes women aren't aware that we've been socialized to let them.

GG

:rolleyes: What nonsense. The "fact that he spreads himself out shows that he is purposely ignoring what it means to be respectful to the person next" may just mean that he has a different inborn level of personal space than you do, and I would never presume to call someone "scum" unless I had some level of evidence that their actions were knowing and deliberate. I have 4 brothers and every one of them is a natural born sprawler, despite everything my parents did to correct that behavior. They're tall, 2 are also quite large, and they perceive the space around themselves differently than I perceive my personal space. I will say that if you asked one of them to move back a bit, they would do so, but I can't guarantee over a several hour flight that they wouldn't sprawl again without realizing it.

Why must so many things be turned into a "battle" (your word, post #10 in this thread) of the sexes? The last person I had intrude into my personal space to a painful degree on a plane was a thirtyish female with a nasty attitude, sharp elbows and too much carry-on baggage.

Gosh, usually if someone's impeding my space on a flight, I simply say "excuse me" and try shifting.. I don't think I've ever really had a problem. I'm not mean about it, just kind and to the point.

I go this route as well, and I thought I was being subtle, not passive aggressive. I was on a flight where the man next to me purposely raised the arm rest between us to accomodate his rather large body. He did this as soon as he sat down, I looked at him and put the arm rest right back down. I couldn't believe he expected me to ride with him overflowing into my space the entire flight. I counted the minutes until we landed.

I had a flight last week where a rather large - in the athletic sense - young man (I believe I heard him tell the man on the other side that he was a college basketball player) actually visibly took care to not invade my personal space. I was quite impressed and, of course, thought of this thread. I did feel bad for him though as he obviously looked quite uncomfortable trying to hold himself inside the space of a coach airplane seat.

When the passenger touches you during the flight as the OP described as a "sleazy date", he's scum just as the OP described. You call that nonsense? I guess you like being touched by strangers. Hey, whatever floats your boat.

Do your 4 brothers touch the female passengers next to them like the OP described as that of being a sleazy date? Yeah, didn't think so. My response is geared toward the OP's description of the guy next to her.

This thread is about men who act as if the flight is a sleazy date as the OP. The responses here address that.

If you were to start a thread about women who are nasty with their elbows and carry-on luggage invading your space, I suspect you'd have responses about how to handle that problem.

Bobette got it with her response. Simple and succinct. ^

whoa, too much hostility there.

Here's the OP's post:
What I see is a post about rudeness, not sexual groping. Did the OP ever state that the male pax touched specific parts of her body, or just invaded into her space?

Your viewpoint. Not mine. Just a response to "what nonsense" said to me by you. Talk about "hostility". Pot, kettle, black.

OP used the term 'sleazy date'. You can interpret it the way you want. I interpret it as an invasion of my space done purposely as if on a sleazy date. Private body parts? Sexual groping? I'm referring to ANY and ALL intentional physical contact that would make someone feel uncomfortable and invaded upon, something that should never happen especially while in flight.

You've got to stop people like that from the beginning. "Do you mind" as Bobette interjected works as a direct way of stopping this intrusion. You disagree?

LAX-JFK, long flight last week, little guy in the exit-row middle seat, I let him have the armrest. However, he took half my seat with his constantly moving elbow. He was at least six inches into my seat while using his laptop. Not a pervert or sexual threat, just damned annoying with spread-eagled arms.

I was hugging my arms and leaning into the window to give him space. The more I gave, the more he took. In the exit row that plane didn't have a real armrest on the window side, so it was uncomfortable leaning into the wall. Normally I just put up with this kind of stuff, but ...

I finally asked him to please keep his elbow on the armrest because the constant movement of his elbow was annoying. He told me he couldn't help it because the guy in the aisle seat was leaning into HIM.

Returning from the lav I actually asked the aisle seat guy to let the middle seat use his armrest because he was constantly poking me. Aisle seat guy says middle seat did have the armrest and was also poking HIM in the ribs. Middle seat heard the conversation, but didn't make any effort to bring in his elbows.

Getting really annoyed, I took my laptop and upended it between me and the armrest. It stuck up above the armrest just enough to keep him from moving into my space. What a relief, for the remaining hour of the flight.

Next time I will take action much sooner and not worry about anyone's feelings. You are warned ....

But what about the overweight woman whose thighs rub mine? At least the seat dividers in the exit row keep hip flesh from intruding.

On average, men sit closer to unacquainted men than they do to unacquainted women. Is that a product of how people have been socialized?

I've observed perverted male passengers in action -- including trying to touch or touching unacquainted female passenger and then engaging in what can only be considered a form of covered masturbation -- but I'm less sure that's a product of more usual male socialization than it is a product of a personal lack of respect for others regardless of sex.

I'm curious where you got this data. I don't disagree, necessarily, I'm just curious.

I think the perverted male passenger is most likely the exception, not the rule, and I don't think that behavior is considered the norm. I also don't think that's what the OP was talking about, despite the poor choice of the words, "sleazy date."

Honestly? My experience in the world is that most people, yep, even men, are basically decent human beings, just trying to get along in the world. People often step on other people's toes without actually realizing that they're doing so. It's not always cause for a big feminist debate. Sometimes people don't know they're bothering you. Sure, sometimes they're jerks or perverts, but more often than not, they may not even realize what they're doing.

Just MHO, anyway.

GG

It's been a number of years since I read the article in some reputable publication that mentioned a study where this finding surprised me (in such a way that I still recall the findings related to males determining their seating position/distance). Unfortunately, I do not recall which publication it was that had mentioned the study; nor do I recall who conducted the study. I do recall that the study's methodology didn't seem out of the extraordinary in such a way as to cause me to doubt the study's findings' applicability.


I'm of the same opinion.

^

I can't even imagine how uncomfortable it must be for her. Not much you can do on a plane that is full. It isn't like she is trying to take advantage of you.

funny how that it was when a man intrudes personal space its automatically assumed that he's scum and being sleazy....but the woman is given full benefit of the doubt, bless her poor uncomfortable overweight heart.

.... and yes, I read the first post even before it was edited, and sorry, I think the OP was choosing to automatically assume intentions that weren't there, and that "sleazy date" was an overreaction.

I'm with GeoGirl on this one. There are plenty of ways to reclaim your space diplomatically, and without the need to assume that all men in your personal space are trying to pick you up.

I guess because I am in my 60s that it does not immediately occur to me that the rude man who wants his space and half of mine wants anything other than to spread out. At the " invisible" age, all I do is push and keep pushing until the dweeb understands that all little old ladies are not passive. Then I smile.

That's exactly what I was thinking!

I wondered who would say this! I was waiting....I don't have the kind of anger hurled at overweight people that some of you do. Check out the nasty threads on "people of size" in FT. Did you miss the last sentence of what the OP wrote on her initial post? Hint, she put it in parentheses. Those who are overweight may be considered obnoxious to some of you, but not to me.

Since the OP called it sleazy, I answered to that description. Most men certainly aren't sleazy.

Who knows what she may be trying. Some women do try to take advantage of other women and/or men by getting touchy.

I mentioned this thread to Mr. Geogirl and after expressing sympathy for women who are inappropriately touched, he also mentioned that men have extra "equipment" in their laps that often necessitate a little leg spread merely for accommodation. We women can sit comfortably in ways that may not be comfortable for a man, though even in the tight confines of an airplane, it's not usually necessary.

My point is...let's face it...airplanes, for the most part, aren't the most comfortable places in the world, no matter who you are. Most of us are just trying to settle in and deal with the discomfort for the limited amount of time we're on the plane. Right or wrong, for some, that means spreading out and taking up as much space as the person nearby will allow - not to be rude or offensive or nasty, not because they even necessarily know they're doing something rude or offensive or nasty, but just because sometimes, that's the world we live in.

But remember, if you're content to allow someone to take over some of the space you paid for, you've just reinforced for them that their strategy is effective and acceptable. OTOH, if you let them know they're in your space and you'd prefer that they weren't, you have a chance at teaching someone to be more aware of their surroundings in the future. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I have a social encounter in which I realize I've been inconsiderate or careless of those around me, I remember that experience the next time I'm in a similar venue and try to pay more attention.

Every social interaction is a negotiation of sorts. As women, we're typically not socialized to negotiate as well as men often are. It's time we learn that social negotiation doesn't require passive aggressive behavior or overly aggressive behavior. We can simply assert ourselves (a "Pardon me," "Do you mind?" or even an "Excuse me, but please move your arm/leg/other offending body part," will do), reclaim the space that is rightfully ours, and fly in as much comfort as the limited space allows.

be a consumer
 

I take the consumer approach. I bought the space and if someone is going to take it away from me I will complain to them and to the FA if they do not stop. I have not had many instances of this in fact the closest example was not physical space but a guy who was verbally harassing me on a transcon last month. He was visibly drunk and sitting directly behind me and annoying me. I told him to stop. He did not so I quickly rang the FA call button. I ended up moving up a row and the FAs kept an eye on him. He did not bother me again after that. I should add I was in a paid first class seat on that particular flight so I feeling rather ripped off to be paying for first class and having to put up with that. I said so to both the passenger and the FA. I also sent an email complaining to the airline (who did nothing other then send me a "pat on the head" reply). But honestly even in coach I would do the same. You pay for the seat you should get the seat and the space that comes with it and not have someone taking up some of your paid for space, be they male, female, or a even a service animal. If someone is impinging on your space and won't let up, you complain immediately to the FA, get it documented and make sure they know you will ask for a refund on your ticket in writing if your situation is not dealt with.

I've had all of the above and I just think dealing depends on the circumstance.

The proper sleazy guy who, on a flight back from India, kept putting his hand under my blanket and rubbing my leg got told off. The men who have such HUGE equipment that their legs need to be at a 90° angle (not to mention overactive elbows) I ask politely and then, if ignored go down the passive aggressive route of spreading MY legs, and getting jabby with my pointy elbows.

And when I had an plus plus plus size passenger next to me (let me put it this way, his lap was in my lap) I went and begged the cabin crew for another seat and they found me one - and an upgrade to boot.