UA 2, SIN-SFO, 3 Dec 2018, with planned stop in HNL
Dec 3, 2018, 8:40 am
#61
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Houston, TX, USA
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I'm having a hard time understanding this as well. Not to mention the delays down the line caused by having the airframe available a day or so later for whatever the next flights it was scheduled to operate.
Dec 3, 2018, 8:47 am
#62
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,531
Me too.
I happened to read the relevant portion of the ALPA contract recently, and it provides for family emergencies (death or life-threatening illness or injury of an immediate family member). In those cases, a pilot can basically take a no-notice 4-day leave of absence with no repercussions, and there is a limit to the number of times they can do this over their entire career at United. There are provisions for longer leaves to deal with family issues (up to 1 year in some circumstances) with different notice and documentation requirements.
Obviously an inconvenience to everyone else but that's how it goes (and how it should go). No different than if the pilot got the flu or broke their leg in SIN. I don't think pilots bail mid-trip lightly.
And just to re-iterate to those skimming the thread: the plane did not stop in HNL for the convenience of the pilot. The pilot left to deal with an emergency and United did its best to operate the flight as close to on-time as possible with reduced crew, despite the great expense of stopping in HNL and deadheading a replacement crew. The extra expense of stopping at HNL was taken for the benefit of the passengers, not the crew.
I happened to read the relevant portion of the ALPA contract recently, and it provides for family emergencies (death or life-threatening illness or injury of an immediate family member). In those cases, a pilot can basically take a no-notice 4-day leave of absence with no repercussions, and there is a limit to the number of times they can do this over their entire career at United. There are provisions for longer leaves to deal with family issues (up to 1 year in some circumstances) with different notice and documentation requirements.
Obviously an inconvenience to everyone else but that's how it goes (and how it should go). No different than if the pilot got the flu or broke their leg in SIN. I don't think pilots bail mid-trip lightly.
And just to re-iterate to those skimming the thread: the plane did not stop in HNL for the convenience of the pilot. The pilot left to deal with an emergency and United did its best to operate the flight as close to on-time as possible with reduced crew, despite the great expense of stopping in HNL and deadheading a replacement crew. The extra expense of stopping at HNL was taken for the benefit of the passengers, not the crew.
Dec 3, 2018, 11:53 am
#64
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Cheers to being gracious and making the best out the situation instead of being put out by someone's emergency. And congrats on 1MM!
I am also curious about how this turns out, having been in a similar situation. Last year I was on a FRA-SFO flight delayed for maintenance, so they told us before we boarded that we would have to make a quick stop at ORD to change crews. I'm not one who gets upset over delays (I would rather arrive late than dead, after all) but this delay meant that I would miss my connection in SFO and result in me missing a funeral the following day (the entire point of this TATL trip), I called reservations and was told that I could leave the plane at ORD and take a direct flight that evening to my final destination. I could see in the app that the new flight had been added to the PNR. I also confirmed with the gate agents, who promised to call ahead to ORD so they knew the situation. But when we landed an agent met me at the door, saying that yes, they had called ahead, but I had been misinformed and could not leave the plane due to CBP requirements (of course it's always possible, but clearly they weren't willing to do the extra work required for a single passenger).
Due to a series of unfortunate events (one of the replacement pilots timed out minutes before we were ready to push back, thunderstorm meant ground workers had to stay inside), we ended up on the ground for almost four hours and had to stay either on the plane or in a sterile waiting room at the end of the jet bridge, so we didn't officially arrive in the US until landing in SFO. Since UA has had a couple of days notice to plan for this situation, maybe it will be handled differently. Best of luck to PremEx2000 and don't forget to update us!
I am also curious about how this turns out, having been in a similar situation. Last year I was on a FRA-SFO flight delayed for maintenance, so they told us before we boarded that we would have to make a quick stop at ORD to change crews. I'm not one who gets upset over delays (I would rather arrive late than dead, after all) but this delay meant that I would miss my connection in SFO and result in me missing a funeral the following day (the entire point of this TATL trip), I called reservations and was told that I could leave the plane at ORD and take a direct flight that evening to my final destination. I could see in the app that the new flight had been added to the PNR. I also confirmed with the gate agents, who promised to call ahead to ORD so they knew the situation. But when we landed an agent met me at the door, saying that yes, they had called ahead, but I had been misinformed and could not leave the plane due to CBP requirements (of course it's always possible, but clearly they weren't willing to do the extra work required for a single passenger).
Due to a series of unfortunate events (one of the replacement pilots timed out minutes before we were ready to push back, thunderstorm meant ground workers had to stay inside), we ended up on the ground for almost four hours and had to stay either on the plane or in a sterile waiting room at the end of the jet bridge, so we didn't officially arrive in the US until landing in SFO. Since UA has had a couple of days notice to plan for this situation, maybe it will be handled differently. Best of luck to PremEx2000 and don't forget to update us!
Dec 3, 2018, 3:09 pm
#67
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: HAK / HFE / NYC / SIN / SZX
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OK finally able to give an update on this.
The fight departed SIN on schedule and the flight was smooth. Met up with PremEx2000v2 onboard. We arrived HNL a little earlier at 7:45am but took the ground staff some time to adjust the areobridge as they are not used to a 789 at the gate.
We were then bused to the immigration and custom area for formalities. There were a lot of confusion on what we could do with in terms of changing onward flights. In any event, we proceeded to clear immigration, picked up our luggage and cleared custom.
We then proceeded upstairs to the UA counter for re-check-in. Before I reached the counter, I had called the 1K desk to find options and alternative. I called several times and got different answers. I then proceeded to the counter and asked. To my surprised, the staff was pleasantly wanting to help and called her help desk.
All in all, they were able to put me on the next day direct non-stop flight HNL-EWR and protected me in upgraded seat. This is unprecedented as it would have exceeded the 24 hours time frame and without costing me an extra upgrade instrument, but I'm not complaining. With this, I'm able to stay overnight, at my own expense of course, and enjoy a day of Hawaiian sun.
I managed to book with 35K points at the HIX Waikiki. Paid USD32 for a RT airport shuttle. Now just checked into my room at 11:45am.
As to the nature of the diversion, it was one of the Pilot crew member where he had a family emergency back home due to the earthquake in Alaska. That was all I heard.
So here you have it. Aloha!
The fight departed SIN on schedule and the flight was smooth. Met up with PremEx2000v2 onboard. We arrived HNL a little earlier at 7:45am but took the ground staff some time to adjust the areobridge as they are not used to a 789 at the gate.
We were then bused to the immigration and custom area for formalities. There were a lot of confusion on what we could do with in terms of changing onward flights. In any event, we proceeded to clear immigration, picked up our luggage and cleared custom.
We then proceeded upstairs to the UA counter for re-check-in. Before I reached the counter, I had called the 1K desk to find options and alternative. I called several times and got different answers. I then proceeded to the counter and asked. To my surprised, the staff was pleasantly wanting to help and called her help desk.
All in all, they were able to put me on the next day direct non-stop flight HNL-EWR and protected me in upgraded seat. This is unprecedented as it would have exceeded the 24 hours time frame and without costing me an extra upgrade instrument, but I'm not complaining. With this, I'm able to stay overnight, at my own expense of course, and enjoy a day of Hawaiian sun.
I managed to book with 35K points at the HIX Waikiki. Paid USD32 for a RT airport shuttle. Now just checked into my room at 11:45am.
As to the nature of the diversion, it was one of the Pilot crew member where he had a family emergency back home due to the earthquake in Alaska. That was all I heard.
So here you have it. Aloha!
Dec 3, 2018, 4:20 pm
#69
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We then proceeded upstairs to the UA counter for re-check-in. Before I reached the counter, I had called the 1K desk to find options and alternative. I called several times and got different answers. I then proceeded to the counter and asked. To my surprised, the staff was pleasantly wanting to help and called her help desk.
Dec 3, 2018, 5:29 pm
#70
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I actually was thinking, why not have the pilot swap with the whoever is flying the next flight out. But I assume there were probably crew rest timing issues or he had to get back sooner or they didn't want a distressed pilot at the wheel. I would assume that the pilot worked with UA and after considering all the options choose the best option.
Dec 3, 2018, 5:30 pm
#71
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I actually was thinking, why not have the pilot swap with the whoever is flying the next flight out. But I assume there were probably crew rest timing issues or he had to get back sooner or they didn't want a distressed pilot at the wheel. I would assume that the pilot worked with UA and after considering all the options choose the best option.
Dec 3, 2018, 5:31 pm
#72
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I wonder how hard it would have been to get a pilot from a "nearby" locaiton (ie HKG) that was already rested. I guess it would have been easier back when UA had more of a network over there, though I assume they don't have too many spare pilots out there
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Dec 3, 2018 at 5:40 pm Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member
Dec 3, 2018, 5:42 pm
#73
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UA doesn't operate any 787s to HKG, and as soon as you deadheaded a pilot from there (or, more realistically, PVG or NRT), the rest period would reset.
Dec 3, 2018, 5:59 pm
#74
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I feel for the crew and their family. Hope they make it through OK.
That said, looks like UA's crew scheduling/layovers does not allow for any of these sort of contingencies and the result is all sorts of extra costs and expenses just because there are not crew reserves at outstations. IIRC, outstations like SYD used to have longer layovers/reserve scheduled to handle things like this (illness, emergencies, etc.) so that dramatic repositioning/deadheading wasn't as necessary. I guess the Smisek/Kirby spreadsheets took over that calculation.
That said, looks like UA's crew scheduling/layovers does not allow for any of these sort of contingencies and the result is all sorts of extra costs and expenses just because there are not crew reserves at outstations. IIRC, outstations like SYD used to have longer layovers/reserve scheduled to handle things like this (illness, emergencies, etc.) so that dramatic repositioning/deadheading wasn't as necessary. I guess the Smisek/Kirby spreadsheets took over that calculation.
Dec 3, 2018, 6:10 pm
#75
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That said, looks like UA's crew scheduling/layovers does not allow for any of these sort of contingencies and the result is all sorts of extra costs and expenses just because there are not crew reserves at outstations. IIRC, outstations like SYD used to have longer layovers/reserve scheduled to handle things like this (illness, emergencies, etc.) so that dramatic repositioning/deadheading wasn't as necessary. I guess the Smisek/Kirby spreadsheets took over that calculation.
One flight got diverted and re-crewed. It's a cost of doing business on the ULH flights, because they operate so close to the limits of crew legality and fuel capacity.
Scheduling extra crew to cover every contingency sounds great as long as it's not your time or money. I'm not sure the crews would be all that thrilled to be told that they had to spend an extra day away from their families in order to offset the chance that one of them might have an emergency. Nor would I want to be the guy who suggested additional hotel and meal expenses to cover these remote possibilities, nor the person who explained why they'd need to cut flights or add pilots because they'd short-staffed themselves by insisting that everybody spend extra time in SIN, PPT, CTU, ROR, or wherever.
Not everything comes down to Jeff Smisek being cheap.