United passenger threatened with handcuffs to make room for 'higher-priority' travele
#106
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Olde Dominion
Programs: DL Silver - uh huh!
Posts: 948
The fairest thing to do re: downgrades would seem to me to be
1. You don't downgrade someone who originally booked and paid for the seat outright (with either cash or miles).That is, someone who booked and paid for a seat in F has top priority, regardless of the amount of cash or miles paid.
2. If everyone in F is on a paid (and non-upgrade) ticket, then the lowest priority goes to the person who bought a ticket last. Simply put, it's not fair for the airline to boot someone who bought a ticket months ago in favor of someone who bought a ticket the airline didn't actually have available to sell.
The only exception might be protection for people who bought last-minute tickets, as their travel is more likely to be critical. But defining last-minute would probably be a hornet's nest.
3. People with booked-in-class tickets have priority over people with paid upgrades, who have priority over people with status upgrades.
Practically, that means airlines should not sell or give away upgrades until they are sure the seats are available (which means all paid pax are onboard or else the time to be at the gate has come and gone).
4. Check-in time is irrelevant for determining downgrades (except you must be checked in by whatever time is specified in the CoC). If the airline says you have until T-?? to check in, then you do, period. You can't get downgraded or booted because you took them at their word.
5. Non-revs and must-flies can't displace paying pax (either purchased-in-class or paid upgrade). In all fairness, they probably should not displace pax who have already received a complimentary upgrade either. Goes back to you don't promise (and certainly you don't sell) something and then take it back.
EDIT: I guess the situation could arise where a higher priority passenger (under my scheme) arrives st the gate before the cutoff time but after the cabin has boarded full. If that is the case, of course, the airline hasn't been paying attention or monitoring the situation. But I would argue then that you certainly don't downgrade a paid-in-class boarded pax or a paid-to-upgrade boarded pax. They could downgrade a complimentary upgrade pax (in this case using status as the selection criterion seems OK) but with decent compensation.
EDIT2: As for compensation, a downgraded paid or paid-upgrade pax should get the difference in the fares AT THE TIME OF BOOKING, plus interest (because use of that money was lost - it might not be much, but it's the principle - no pun intended!). Everyone downgraded (paid with cash or miles) also gets mileage compensation. I suppose this could be determined based on amount paid for ticket/upgrade and/or status.
1. You don't downgrade someone who originally booked and paid for the seat outright (with either cash or miles).That is, someone who booked and paid for a seat in F has top priority, regardless of the amount of cash or miles paid.
2. If everyone in F is on a paid (and non-upgrade) ticket, then the lowest priority goes to the person who bought a ticket last. Simply put, it's not fair for the airline to boot someone who bought a ticket months ago in favor of someone who bought a ticket the airline didn't actually have available to sell.
The only exception might be protection for people who bought last-minute tickets, as their travel is more likely to be critical. But defining last-minute would probably be a hornet's nest.
3. People with booked-in-class tickets have priority over people with paid upgrades, who have priority over people with status upgrades.
Practically, that means airlines should not sell or give away upgrades until they are sure the seats are available (which means all paid pax are onboard or else the time to be at the gate has come and gone).
4. Check-in time is irrelevant for determining downgrades (except you must be checked in by whatever time is specified in the CoC). If the airline says you have until T-?? to check in, then you do, period. You can't get downgraded or booted because you took them at their word.
5. Non-revs and must-flies can't displace paying pax (either purchased-in-class or paid upgrade). In all fairness, they probably should not displace pax who have already received a complimentary upgrade either. Goes back to you don't promise (and certainly you don't sell) something and then take it back.
EDIT: I guess the situation could arise where a higher priority passenger (under my scheme) arrives st the gate before the cutoff time but after the cabin has boarded full. If that is the case, of course, the airline hasn't been paying attention or monitoring the situation. But I would argue then that you certainly don't downgrade a paid-in-class boarded pax or a paid-to-upgrade boarded pax. They could downgrade a complimentary upgrade pax (in this case using status as the selection criterion seems OK) but with decent compensation.
EDIT2: As for compensation, a downgraded paid or paid-upgrade pax should get the difference in the fares AT THE TIME OF BOOKING, plus interest (because use of that money was lost - it might not be much, but it's the principle - no pun intended!). Everyone downgraded (paid with cash or miles) also gets mileage compensation. I suppose this could be determined based on amount paid for ticket/upgrade and/or status.
Last edited by Kamalaasaa; Apr 13, 2017 at 4:19 pm Reason: Add to list; add compensation
#107
Join Date: Apr 2011
Programs: WN, AA, UA, DL
Posts: 1,313
Let's take Delta's fiasco in which they are lying and screwing over hundreds of thousands of customers for stranding them and not giving due compensation. They cancelled about 4,000 flights and stats say they delayed thousands more. 10,000 cancelled and delayed flights in a conservative number. They estimate the problem will cost them 125 million in pre-tax income. Take 125m and divide by 10,000 flights. It's only $12,500 per flight. And that's mainline flights with an average passenger load likely north of 150. For the sake of simplicity, we'll assume the same CASM/RASM ratio for the UA Express flight as Delta mainline flight with 150 seats and adjust for a 70 seat airplane. It's only $5,833 per flight. That's not much. One cancellation is more palatable in no time. That's one danger with forcing airlines to raise IDB compensation above reasonable levels. It's harmful for the aggregate consumer.
#109
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Maryland
Programs: United, Turkish
Posts: 640
Also lol at the handcuffs thing. Here's an easy trick to get threatened with handcuffs.
(1) Go to a business.
(2) Get into a disagreement with the owner of the business.
(3) Refuse to back down or leave.
There you go. Wasn't so hard, was it? In fact, I know some corner shops where you hope they call the cops rather than take things into their own hands.
(1) Go to a business.
(2) Get into a disagreement with the owner of the business.
(3) Refuse to back down or leave.
There you go. Wasn't so hard, was it? In fact, I know some corner shops where you hope they call the cops rather than take things into their own hands.
#110
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,116
Let me help you out:
1) If there's an aircraft switch and a problem, you take care of it BEFORE boarding. They didn't switch planes after boarding. It sure as hell wasn't the passenger's fault that he was boarded and sitting in his seat.
2. If you pay full freight for first class and already sitting in your seat, you should never be forced to relinquish that seat, unless it's for an FAM in a last minute security situation.
3. Threatening a full fare coach passenger who is minding his business and sitting in his assigned seat with violence (handcuffs) if he doesn't get off the plane is outrageously wrong, even if the guy isn't a corporate CEO. (The fact that he is a CEO and can make everyone's life a living hell by publicizing the story makes it all the worse - or all the more fun)
That's for starters, Eric. Hope this helps you see some of what's wrong here.
1) If there's an aircraft switch and a problem, you take care of it BEFORE boarding. They didn't switch planes after boarding. It sure as hell wasn't the passenger's fault that he was boarded and sitting in his seat.
2. If you pay full freight for first class and already sitting in your seat, you should never be forced to relinquish that seat, unless it's for an FAM in a last minute security situation.
3. Threatening a full fare coach passenger who is minding his business and sitting in his assigned seat with violence (handcuffs) if he doesn't get off the plane is outrageously wrong, even if the guy isn't a corporate CEO. (The fact that he is a CEO and can make everyone's life a living hell by publicizing the story makes it all the worse - or all the more fun)
That's for starters, Eric. Hope this helps you see some of what's wrong here.
#111
Join Date: May 2016
Location: LAX
Programs: UAL 1K MM, Marriott Ambassador
Posts: 438
#112
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunshine State
Programs: Avis Trump. Costco Exec. SPG PLAT PREM-90. WN A+/CP. AA SLV. Nat EE..
Posts: 456
are we sure #2 isn't the case? What if the "higher priority" was they found out it was an air Marshall? Wouldn't know that until late in the process I bet...
#113
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: YVR
Programs: OZ Diamond, Jiffypark Manhattan Gold
Posts: 4,485
I fully agree, but my thing is like...once everyone is on..if "Mr. Important" shows up last minute...then you just tell him sorry. I realize u don't wanna piss off your highest rev GS types. But you can't bump a paying biz customer based on yearly earn/spend. You'd bump an upgrade first, MAYBE a mileage ticket second, if they can even see that, but failing both of those, sorry, you just bump whoever is last if no one is willing to volunteer.
#115
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Washington DC and Denver CO
Programs: UA 1K, Bonvoy Titanium/LT Gold
Posts: 379
in general I wholly agree. But I could see United making an argument for prioritizing GS over a TOD.
I'm a 1K and was bumped out of my $129 P fare upgrade bought at check in, and then subsequently re-upgraded before boarding. I'm not sure what happened but it was very strange - the GA said to me "I take care of my 1Ks".. My fear of course was I bumped somebody else. All in all I agree that if UA is willing to accept any kind of payment for an F seat, that passenger stays.
#116
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,595
If they can't get their act together to ensure that the GS is upgraded before they start selling upgrades, they shouldn't be selling upgrades.
#117
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA MileagePlus (Premier Gold); Hilton HHonors (Gold); Chase Ultimate Rewards; Amex Plat
Posts: 6,679
They should never bump anyone out of F unless there's an equipment swap that decreases the number of F seats. If they're trying to plan for the possibility that an elite books an automatic upgrade fare, then they should hold some F seats open for that purpose. If no one purchases those types of fares, then you upgrade someone at the last minute; you do not upgrade first and then downgrade if someone purchases such a fare, period. If it's a last minute SDC where an elite transfers onto that flight, then sorry, he/she sits in the back. I've SDCed before and had to take a middle seat after doing so. So what? That's what happens when you make last minute changes. Deal with it.
#118
Join Date: Feb 2016
Programs: United
Posts: 16
Including a TOD upgrade at check-in?
in general I wholly agree. But I could see United making an argument for prioritizing GS over a TOD.
I'm a 1K and was bumped out of my $129 P fare upgrade bought at check in, and then subsequently re-upgraded before boarding. I'm not sure what happened but it was very strange - the GA said to me "I take care of my 1Ks".. My fear of course was I bumped somebody else. All in all I agree that if UA is willing to accept any kind of payment for an F seat, that passenger stays.
in general I wholly agree. But I could see United making an argument for prioritizing GS over a TOD.
I'm a 1K and was bumped out of my $129 P fare upgrade bought at check in, and then subsequently re-upgraded before boarding. I'm not sure what happened but it was very strange - the GA said to me "I take care of my 1Ks".. My fear of course was I bumped somebody else. All in all I agree that if UA is willing to accept any kind of payment for an F seat, that passenger stays.