Wow - selling the upgrades at the gate so explicitly.
#181
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,406
CO routinely upgraded flyers because few people were paying the exorbitant amount they wanted for F. UA is not, because they're charging less, and so people buy what they have to sell. End of story.
The only problem I have with selling upgrades at the gate is that it has bad optics. People have already turned down at least one chance to upgrade by the time they get to the gate, and likely several. Selling that last upgrade or two probably isn't worth the ill will it creates for the flyers at the top of that upgrade list. UA would be better served to use sales techniques that aren't as in-your-face.
#182
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: San Francisco
Programs: UA MM Plat, UA 1MM, Hilton Lifetime Gold, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold, CLEAR, AS MVP Gold
Posts: 3,620
The fact that the person who is #1 on the upgrade list can see the seats disappear is, of course, disappointing for that flyer, and that magnifies the apparently effect.
The only problem I have with selling upgrades at the gate is that it has bad optics. People have already turned down at least one chance to upgrade by the time they get to the gate, and likely several. Selling that last upgrade or two probably isn't worth the ill will it creates for the flyers at the top of that upgrade list. UA would be better served to use sales techniques that aren't as in-your-face.
The only problem I have with selling upgrades at the gate is that it has bad optics. People have already turned down at least one chance to upgrade by the time they get to the gate, and likely several. Selling that last upgrade or two probably isn't worth the ill will it creates for the flyers at the top of that upgrade list. UA would be better served to use sales techniques that aren't as in-your-face.
#183
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,406
After being #1/2 on the upgrade list AND applying RPU's on several of my last flights and not getting a single upgrade I politely asked an agent what was up. She was very nice and looked up my current flight info. She was surprisingly very specific but basically said the remaining F seats went to GS flyers and last minute buy ups. It is what it is but I agree it does "create ill will" for some of the UA better customers.
Now I, personally, am of the opinion that they should open more R space in advance, because they're risking losing your business to the competition. However, UA clearly believes that hub-based flyers value the schedule and convenience of the non-stop options they can provide, and that you won't bolt. The fact that you've flown more with them as your upgrade percentage has declined suggests that they're right. The only way that their policies will change is if people start booking away from them en masse.
#184
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 957
As stated earlier, I completely agree that the main (only?) issue is the optics and the fact that they are creating dissapointed elite members when a more efficient and transparent handling would solve these problems.
I'm buying up front most of the time these days. To me, depending on the equipment, I would pay $75 or so per hour difference. I'm finding that consistently.
I'm buying up front most of the time these days. To me, depending on the equipment, I would pay $75 or so per hour difference. I'm finding that consistently.
#185
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: San Francisco
Programs: UA MM Plat, UA 1MM, Hilton Lifetime Gold, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold, CLEAR, AS MVP Gold
Posts: 3,620
Now I, personally, am of the opinion that they should open more R space in advance, because they're risking losing your business to the competition. However, UA clearly believes that hub-based flyers value the schedule and convenience of the non-stop options they can provide, and that you won't bolt. The fact that you've flown more with them as your upgrade percentage has declined suggests that they're right. The only way that their policies will change is if people start booking away from them en masse.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Mar 21, 2017 at 1:24 pm Reason: repaired quote
#186
Join Date: Jul 2011
Programs: AA Plat, UA 1K>Plat>moving to Silver
Posts: 2,090
Most of my desire for upgrades is on international travel, and I agree with those remarks about R space. I would buy more UA as opposed to OAL discount business class (primarily AF, but some BA and VA) if more R were available at booking. Presumably they believe that would not maximize their revenue, but given the number of open business class seats there often are at T-48 or so in my experience, I'm not convinced that their revenue management is properly judging that.
#187
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Homosassa, FL & Ringwood, NJ -UA-G(Lifetime); SPG-Plat (Lifetime)
Posts: 6,120
"I'm buying up front most of the time these days. To me, depending on the equipment, I would pay $75 or so per hour difference. I'm finding that consistently."
I fly a lot EWR-TPA-EWR. It is 997 miles and blocked at about 3 hours. I can virtually always buy up for $129 (OW). So, with a little math, 129/3 = $43. (approximately $50/hr.) This is what apparently UA values this at +/-. Seems that the reports for transcons at ~249 fit right in with this math.
I fly a lot EWR-TPA-EWR. It is 997 miles and blocked at about 3 hours. I can virtually always buy up for $129 (OW). So, with a little math, 129/3 = $43. (approximately $50/hr.) This is what apparently UA values this at +/-. Seems that the reports for transcons at ~249 fit right in with this math.
#188
Join Date: May 2014
Location: DMV
Posts: 2,092
Delta had big JFK, LAX, SEA plans before UA integrated. The UA reliability problems were gravy.
Why could they do it?
You pointed it out above.
Very high margin fortress hubs ATL, MSP, DTW, SLC that let them reinvest and take losses as they picked off pockets of margin from AA, UA, and AS.
Witness AA / Parker struggling to make a case for his yield matching DL's going forward. There's something more structural that happened than just UA tripping up, and part of it was DL's ability to come into non-fortress markets with essentially no premium traffic and pick it off with lower, reasonable premium prices vs offering a binary full fare / upgrade model.
The upside is DL having a harder time growing yields than it used to now that the low hanging fruit are picked.
Why could they do it?
You pointed it out above.
Very high margin fortress hubs ATL, MSP, DTW, SLC that let them reinvest and take losses as they picked off pockets of margin from AA, UA, and AS.
Witness AA / Parker struggling to make a case for his yield matching DL's going forward. There's something more structural that happened than just UA tripping up, and part of it was DL's ability to come into non-fortress markets with essentially no premium traffic and pick it off with lower, reasonable premium prices vs offering a binary full fare / upgrade model.
The upside is DL having a harder time growing yields than it used to now that the low hanging fruit are picked.
#189
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, UA Gold, WN, Global Entry; +others wherever miles/points are found
Posts: 14,414
Now I, personally, am of the opinion that they should open more R space in advance, because they're risking losing your business to the competition. However, UA clearly believes that hub-based flyers value the schedule and convenience of the non-stop options they can provide, and that you won't bolt. The fact that you've flown more with them as your upgrade percentage has declined suggests that they're right. The only way that their policies will change is if people start booking away from them en masse.
As said upthread, the big problem is TODs is the timing and the optics. I think the effect is somewhat nontrivial, but tends to get blown out of proportion, especially the almost completely unsubstantiated yet widely believed story that having status means that you get worse TOD offers (I don't book Y much but my offers have been consistent as I've bounced around status levels).
#190
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Programs: AA LT Plat, UA 1k/1mm+, National EE, IC Plat, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 2,605
The problem with all the upgrade selling is that when the instruments don't clear, there is no reason for anyone to fly UA past the status they aspire to. So in my case, it may end up costing UA the incremental $13k in flying that I can now plough into AA to reach EXP.
UA will never know what it is missing because they can't see the revenue they lose unless I am sending them receipts for AA bookings...which is far too cumbersome.
I can't be the only one who thinks that way. Question is...do others do the same if they are primarily AA or DL fliers at such a scale that it all cancels each other out.
UA will never know what it is missing because they can't see the revenue they lose unless I am sending them receipts for AA bookings...which is far too cumbersome.
I can't be the only one who thinks that way. Question is...do others do the same if they are primarily AA or DL fliers at such a scale that it all cancels each other out.
#191
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: ORD
Programs: UA Silver, Marriott Platinum/LT Platinum, Hilton Gold
Posts: 5,594
The problem with all the upgrade selling is that when the instruments don't clear, there is no reason for anyone to fly UA past the status they aspire to. So in my case, it may end up costing UA the incremental $13k in flying that I can now plough into AA to reach EXP.
UA will never know what it is missing because they can't see the revenue they lose unless I am sending them receipts for AA bookings...which is far too cumbersome.
I can't be the only one who thinks that way. Question is...do others do the same if they are primarily AA or DL fliers at such a scale that it all cancels each other out.
UA will never know what it is missing because they can't see the revenue they lose unless I am sending them receipts for AA bookings...which is far too cumbersome.
I can't be the only one who thinks that way. Question is...do others do the same if they are primarily AA or DL fliers at such a scale that it all cancels each other out.
#192
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast
Programs: AA CONCIERGE KEY & 1MM, HILTON DIAMOND
Posts: 11,970
Delta also have arguably had a better product than their rivals for a while now. Not by a huge margin, but not insignificant either. I think Delta is a good example of how it can pay off to create positive differentiation via service - as long as you can still manage costs.
#193
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Houston
Programs: UA 1K 1MM, DL 1MM, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Gold
Posts: 115
If there is a different airline that better meets the needs of that person (whether it is due to routes/schedules, fares, status benefits, or something else), just fly the other airline.
A SFO-based UA flyer probably will get better DL upgrade rates ex-SFO than on UA. An ATL-based DL flyer will probably get better UA upgrade rates ex-ATL than on DL.
#194
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
In fairness, loads are irrelevant. Anyone can fill an aircraft if the fares are dropped enough. But, that isn't happening, so presume that PRASM is up.
The worst mistake the legacies made during the financial crisis was to keep drop fares and keep capacity up and then fill F with freebies.
Now, capacity is cut to match demand as demonstrated by PRASM. Either frequency or aircraft size, especially F seating, is cut.
But, it's hard to pull the benefit so it's still listed.
Maybe people ought to hope for another recession ?
The worst mistake the legacies made during the financial crisis was to keep drop fares and keep capacity up and then fill F with freebies.
Now, capacity is cut to match demand as demonstrated by PRASM. Either frequency or aircraft size, especially F seating, is cut.
But, it's hard to pull the benefit so it's still listed.
Maybe people ought to hope for another recession ?
#195
Used to be MBS PremExec
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Saginaw, MI (MBS)
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM, Marriott Titanium w/Lifetime Plat, Hilton LIfetime ♢, National Exec, Amex Plat
Posts: 5,722
I'm curious what the nay-sayers think about what UA did to me last week...
I had an RPU applied on a 1-stop flight. It was two separate 2.5 hour flights. Segment A cleared right away--like 2 days after booking. Segment B was actually a little longer of a flight (by ~20 minutes or so).
As of the day of departure, there were 4 of 20 seats left open on Segment B. I was #1 on the waitlist from check-in to departure. I never moved from that #1 spot.
I did, however, receive an "upgrade this flight for $129" message, which I did not take. I stupidly thought I had a good chance (using an already-redeemed RPU).
So I blew an RPU on a single 2.5 hour flight, and UA undoubtedly sold out upgrades from under me on the other flight--heck, they even offered it to me with an RPU waitlisted and applied to my flights for that day.
I'm just checking--there are people here that think this type of behavior is okay? Just curious. Personally, I see a lot wrong with it--maybe it's just me.
I'll also add I'm a shareholder in UAL, with around 5% of my retirement portfolio in this stock--and I think this is wrong--not just to me, but to others that undoubtedly go through this on a daily basis as well.
I had an RPU applied on a 1-stop flight. It was two separate 2.5 hour flights. Segment A cleared right away--like 2 days after booking. Segment B was actually a little longer of a flight (by ~20 minutes or so).
As of the day of departure, there were 4 of 20 seats left open on Segment B. I was #1 on the waitlist from check-in to departure. I never moved from that #1 spot.
I did, however, receive an "upgrade this flight for $129" message, which I did not take. I stupidly thought I had a good chance (using an already-redeemed RPU).
So I blew an RPU on a single 2.5 hour flight, and UA undoubtedly sold out upgrades from under me on the other flight--heck, they even offered it to me with an RPU waitlisted and applied to my flights for that day.
I'm just checking--there are people here that think this type of behavior is okay? Just curious. Personally, I see a lot wrong with it--maybe it's just me.
I'll also add I'm a shareholder in UAL, with around 5% of my retirement portfolio in this stock--and I think this is wrong--not just to me, but to others that undoubtedly go through this on a daily basis as well.