United Paid Business / First - Involuntary Downgrades
 

This was a new one for me. Showed up in plenty of time for an EWR-GRU UA flight on 5/23. Had booked in business earlier that day for around $3300 one-way.

When I got to the airport, was offered three adjacent coach seats and a $1200 voucher. Same thing happened to another business passenger who was seated in three adjacent coach seats a row ahead of me.

This happening to anyone else or was my experience an anomaly? Am a bit reticent to book last minute business class internationally on UA for my upcoming trips. I took TAM on the way back for the first time and it was pretty comparable to UA.

I assume you're also getting a refund of the difference in fare?

If the voucher was a courtesy for your troubles, that's nice. But, you are entitled to a refund of the difference between your C fare and Y to our original form of payment as well.

Sadly, the difference between D fare ($3,387) and Y fare ($2,668) is only $719, so thats probably all the new UA will give him.

Welcome to COdbaUA. They claim to want to attract business travelers, but they seem to pull this garbage frequently now. I'm sure there were no shortage of upgraded pax in the C cabin they could have downgraded instead.

If I were you, I'd choose LX for my next flight to GVA. Sorry for your troubles.

That raises an interesting question. Should he get difference between D and Y or between what he paid and cheapest economy fare? Not many people planning to fly in E- would actually choose to pay Y.

Except he is going to GRU, not GVA!

Given he booked last minute, presumably Y was the only coach fare left. If there were a lower fare option, I'd say that's the relevant difference.

Pretty remarkable they would sell a business seat and then not provide it--I doubt the C cabin was all paid biz.

FWIW, I was recently in biz on an upgrade and the woman next to me--also an upgrade--was asked to move back to coach because another passenger, who appeared to have paid, was being put in her seat. Oddly, the downgraded pax said her upgrade had cleared several days earlier. (Legacy UA flight)

In my opinion, if someone buys discount C or F, and gets involuntarily downgraded, they should get the difference between what they paid, and an equivalent discounted Y fare, based on what was available at the time of purchase. At least that’s my opinion, probably not the airlines.

One time I purchased a discounted A fare, and I was involuntarily downgraded to Y, and at the time of the downgrade, Y was the only fare available, so they put me in it. When I called for a refund of the difference, the first agent actually had the nerve to tell me that the Y class I flew in cost more than my A, and they that I actually owe them money, but they will waive it. When I asked for a supervisor, they finally refunded the difference between what I paid for A, and I believe a Q fare, which they said was the lowest fare available at the time I booked. I thought that was quite fair. This was pre 3/3 though. Who knows if SHARES can view what was available, I would hope it could.

The policy is to give the difference between fare paid and the lowest economy fare available on the date of purchase.

Here's the thing. If UA is focused on making profit, they would have if they have kept the Full Fare C passengers like the OP. What's the incentives of downgrading the full fare C passenger? Are they secretly doing the math to also make profit off the passengers who are downgraded after the vouchers and the difference of the fare? That doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

Reading too fast. JJ makes a nice subsitute then. Or AC even :D

It would be interesting to hear from UA Insider whether this flight had any upgraded passengers in the front cabin (obviously there were no nonrevs) and whether it's UA policy to involuntarily downgrade the last person who checked in, rather than prioritizing full-fare pax over upgraded pax.

KPhill: If you send UA Insider a message with your flight number & travel date you might be able to get a good answer about whether this is SOP.

I am somewhat reminded of http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...le-agents.html where the computer got to decide who was IDB'd -- "they had economy board...and if the gate scanner buzzed, you were denied boarding and put into a long line to be dealt with."

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Thanks for the replies. Very helpful.

Re the fare difference, have not been offered a refund but also have not asked. I sent a "what is going on?" message to customer service a week ago but have heard nothing. I will ask about the fare difference as well.

Re the upgrades or reward seats, the Club and gate agents were very forthcoming and said that many of the pax in the front were upgrades. They had a pretty long conversation in front of me about whether one of the upgrade pax should be "G.O.'ed" if that means anything to anyone here, although from the context I deduce it means that the upgrade would have been rescinded. They decided not to "G.O." them because they all had checked in and been assigned seats.

The ironic thing is that from my perspective, when I am traveling internationally using an upgrade or miles, it is a personal trip and because I usually have the wife and maybe even the kids with me, a downgrade would be a lot worse than when traveling by myself. So I wouldn't want to inflict that on someone in a similar situation.

I feel like that this is a situation where, if you had been proactive, you would not have been downgraded. Stepping in and telling them that downgrading a paying passenger while there were upgrades is unacceptable, and involving a supervisor, would probably have gotten someone else booted back.

Plus checking in before you get to the airport would almost always prevent this sort of situation.

Stop being nice guy......
UA screwed a paying Business class passenger and they are trying to get away with a $1200 voucher.
I agree that if you would have been more vocal at the airport, somebody that was upgraded would have been sent back. It has happened to me and I am sure to many more.
Do not accept it; do not write a "what's up??" letter.
Email, call and send a snail mail to UA customer service and demand a refund. Do not expect an answer on your first attempt.

There were at least two supervisors involved fwiw. As I mentioned I was not willing to raise a stink to inflict misery on someone else because on some other flight it would be me in their situation - bad karma, right?

I certainly agree that checking in before you get to the airport helps; perhaps that is the lesson here although I was a shade over two hours early for the flight. On the other hand I have had trouble with online check-in to GRU/GIG in the past because the online visa verification doesn't seem to work well. In any event, I was coming directly from a meeting and did not have a chance to stop at the office and print a boarding pass.

Did they treat you like you were still in Business Class (drinks, meals, amenities)

Got a blanket and an offer of free drinks. No special meal though...

Yes UA is worthless and yes I will demand a refund. But rather than getting myself all worked up I would prefer just to not fly UA on competitive routes if this is the way they do business. I don't need the hassle of writing letters and emailing and calling. Next week I will give TAM my $6600 rt.

This is the only sensible way to go. I fully understand your frustrations and why you don't want to cause misery to someone else. The strange thing is that the recent changes to operating procedures (effectively clearing very few GPUs in advance of the gate) should have eliminated this problem, which can happen even to well run airlines.

If it makes you feel any better, I got downgraded once from full fare C to Y on BA - the refund went to my employer and I was SOL.

Wonder if all the upgrades were for $, and they didn't want to refund the transactional / marginal revenue?

I have no idea what the comparison of $ is for refund of an involuntary downgrade versus refunding an upsale. Just a thought.

Kudos to the OP for not wanting to inflict a downgrade on anyone else. Hopefully your good wishes will be rewarded.

If only karma was real.

Good advice if the OP is p**sed off and wants to pursue this further, which does not seem to be the case. But in any event, is being a nice guy a bad thing? :D

Makes a lot of sense to me. In addition to the nice guy factor, this way you're saving yourself a lot of potential aggravation and hassle of dealing with today's UA. If you felt differently about this, I'd say full speed ahead with the complaints. But given how you feel, your course of action sounds reasonable. (And anyway, even if it didn't sound reasonable to me, it's your call after all.)

I dont understand??? Why was he downgraded on a D fare and not an upgrade or someone on a Z fare? He should call his credit card company and deny the charge. Once UA figures out he did that they will contact him for payment and be willing to deal. Similar thing happened to me a few years ago (not a downgrade from a FF ticket) But I declined payment with Amex. When they asked the reason I said "did not get service I paid for" UA called me 2 months later demanding payment but when I explained why I put the stop on the charge they were more then happy to do what was right and get some money back

Some things are just unfathomable and make no sense.

If I was upgraded to business and the FA said I had to be downgraded because there was no seat for a full-fare customer, I would not be happy but I would understand and be agreeable.

If I had a full-fare ticket and they did this to me I would not accept it - period. I would ask for a refund and find another airline - probably for good.

IMhO.... (if those involved wants to do this):

chinatraderjmr, could you PM KPhill the SMI/J address you used for your "cancelled ticket" issues?

E-mail SMI/J your TAM receipt for next week, along with your original UA receipt, and the a brief description of the downgrade. BAsicaly, to show SMI/J the real $$$ he is losing. @:-)

I understand the OP deserved alot better treatment, but in no way should anyone who was UPed prior to the time the OP purchased their tkt be Downgraded so that the OP could fly in BF.

I do agree that anyone that on the day of flight was UPed using any item to do so is a candidate for Downgrading.

Otherwise if I was the last person that was UPed and if that was say 3 weeks ago and since CO oversold BF and they downgrade me as the last person who was UPed , CO would basically be saying well we UPed you but its not a gauranteed thing till the door is closed would drive most people away from ever flying CO

Here is the problem I have with this statement.

Why does the customer HAVE to be proactive, he bought a Business Class ticket, in what world should a customer have to worry about this except in the airline industry... it seems like bait and switch to me especially if I understood correctly that he bought it same day. UA should have offered to fly him business on another airline at the very least.

But I agree with the OP that is the right answer, fly the competition. I've started doing that with AA and I have had WONDERFUL experiences as an ExPlatinum, its how 1Ks used to be treated.

I like this idea. Can't hurt, so why not?

I would definitely make sure UA knows you have decided to book with other carriers and show them proof via actual paid receipts. I guess they just downgraded the last few to check in as opposed to making offers to people to downgrade. Would think there would have been a few upgraders willing to take a downgrade voucher of $1k+....but what do I know.

I was kicked out of C many years ago on UA 895 because a full fare customer showed up at the last minute. I don't think we can blame Jeff for something like that (reasonable). PMUA also got me to HKG in C, but via NRT. Late, but ok.

What happened to the OP is outrageous and smells like some of SMI/J's work.

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They owe you the refund per policy. Make sure you cits GG OVS DOWNGRADE so you're on the same page.

They also did not follow the proper protocol, as they should have downgraded an upgrader if there were no volunteers to downgrade.

I don't think an upgrader, who in an oversold situation would surely have cleared weeks before the flight should be downgraded. If the norm is that confirmed upgrades can be routinely rescinded, then this make 1K even more useless than it has become.

Presumably he was downgraded because the other pax in J checked in before he did.

In any case, the problem is that UA/SHARES oversells J cabins.

I agree with the credit card charge back though.

That said, 3 seats in Y, plus $1200 voucher, plus the difference between the business and coach fare seems like a good deal. If UA routinely offered 3 seats in Y and a $1200 voucher for downgrading upgraders that would be cool with me.

This happens. Though usually not from full fare. Are you sure you were on full fare?. You're booking code must be "C" or "J".

Full fare EWR-GRU is more than $3300 IMHO.

I've been downgraded from Z, which is deep discounted business to Y a few times. IAD-DME/IAD. I've also seen a Global Services pax get downgraded on the same route.I should note that carriers do oversell the Business Class cabin, by a few pax.

$1200 is generous. In my case I was offered the difference between Z and full fare Y, which is not much. $300 or so.

This phenomenon is not unique to United. The BRIC markets are high growth sectors, someone I guess offered to pay more for your seat.

As real as anything else other people believe in

I appreciate that you might think $1200 is generous but why not offer others the three seats and $1200 if I don't want it before bumping me involuntarily?

Here are the details. The booking code is "C".

eTicket Number Frequent Flyer Seats
xxxxx 016706342XXXX UA-XXXXXXX Premier 1K / *G ---/6C
FLIGHT INFORMATION
Day, Date Flight Class Departure City and Time Arrival City and Time Aircraft Meal
Wed, 23MAY12 UA31 C NEWARK, NJ
(EWR - LIBERTY) 9:55 PM SAO PAULO, BRAZIL
(GRU) 8:50 AM
Thu, 24MAY12 UA861 C SAO PAULO, BRAZIL
(GRU) 10:20 AM RIO DE JANEIRO, BRAZIL
(GIG) 11:30 AM
FARE INFORMATION
Fare Breakdown
Airfare: 3,198.00 USD
U.S. Federal Transportation Tax: 16.70
September 11th Security Fee: 2.50
Brazil Embarkation Tax: 8.00
U.S. Passenger Facility Charge: 4.50
Per Person Total: 3,229.70
USD
eTicket Total: 3,229.70
USD

Form of Payment:
VISA
Last Four Digits 1414

The airfare you paid on this itinerary totals: 3,198.00 USD
The taxes, fees, and surcharges paid total: 31.70 USD

D might not be "full fare" per your definition but it is still a fare that when bought is strictly for business class. Not "business class if we can accommodate you". And it's certainly a "fuller" fare then Z,P or R

I usually travel on A fares which under your definition is not a "full fare" first ticket either but if anyone tried to downgrade me they would need security to help them. I certainly would not move especially if there were people in F on lower fares. Regardless. It's a SB move by UA and if I were the OP, I would not bother contacting UA for a refund or complaint. I would simply deny the charge on my CC which he can do legally siting the reason: SERVICE BOUGHT WAS NOT PROVIDED

A is discounted First Class. Not full fare. If some sheik/ha showed up to buy the whole F cabin or if an IO + family + maid showed up, you would be bumped.

I've also been downgraded on EK before. Though I think Emirates handled that a little more graciously. UA does this too. Most airlines do (downgrading). In my case: I was offered the option of taking a later flight, but i had to be at my destination that day. So I flew Y.

See notice of "overbooking". You'll find it in your contract of carriage. For hot markets, places where people can and will pay lots of $$$ for a ticket, I recommend showing up at the airport early and boarding early.
As a rule, I do this on : all of the BRICs and certain mid east routes.

I usually like to be last one on the plane, but I know when not do that.

Sometimes when you snooze you lose. I empathize with the OP.

Wow, the tone of the comments here are somewhat off the wall -- gee, let's just use any excuse to beat up on what UA did. :rolleyes:

The fact is this happens on other airlines occasionally. I was on a VS flight a few years ago that was oversold in Upper Class and they were offering something like a $1000 voucher (or refund, can't remember). They asked me at check-in; they weren't making announcements. I declined. I don't know whether they found a volunteer or had to involuntarily downgrade the last person to check in.

The fact is the compensation was pretty generous. OP got a flat bed, which may have actually been better than what was offered in BusinessFirst (assuming they're still using the recliner 767s on this route). He got a $1200 voucher for his personal use. A fare differential refund would likely have gone back to his company. It's arguable whether that differential is also warranted, since technically he got 3 last-minute Y seats which would have cost way more than 1 last-minute J seat. On the downside, he missed a "fancy" meal -- big whoop.

And I have a really hard time believing those who claim that if the situation was reversed they'd be okay with forgoing their upgrade for someone who paid more for the seat. Just doesn't jibe with other commentary on here, notably the FC buy-up program.

There's enough negativity on here regarding UA, some of it probably well-justified. This isn't, IMHO.

I find it mind boggling that you defend UA here.

- Three Y seats is not "a flat bed"
- It's ludicrous that they downgrade a paid C fare before any upgraders. I guess it's another case of COdbaUA "allowing people who don't normally get to sit in C/F to sit there" in these IDB cases
- He basically got no special treatment in coach

The negativity is incredibly well justified in this case.