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You might consider moving to New York. Despite our politics (agreeable to some, disagreeable to others), we dress well. Including on weekends. Just returned from la Grenouille on a weekend night, where every male diner was in suit and tie. Every single one. Originally Posted by Shiloh
I agree with the OP and not just with flying it's in everyday life. Yes I know times have changed but just because some are dressing more then badly or acting badly/rudely does that mean we all should have this standard? There is nothing wrong w/ comfy that is not what the OP is saying!
On the related topic of gentility, most New Yorkers go through the motions of politeness, although I would be hard-pressed to call New Yorkers "genteel."
But on any given Saturday or Sunday, I would guess that as a percentage of population, more New Yorkers are in suit and tie than any other city in the western hemisphere.
I agree that some people do need to dress better. Giant clothes falling off skinny (fat) people is ridiculous. I just hate it when people make judgements based on peoples clothes. I'm 25, and when I wore jeans on my recent flights in biz on LH old people in suits gave me dirty looks. Next couple flights black slacks and button up and dress shoes and everything is fine. That is the stuff that pisses me off.
Another thought came to mid on this thread- Amtrak.
I've taken Amtrak in the NE Corridor. It is FAR more civilized than flying. The kids are betterbehaved- undoubtedly because they have a little wiggle room, can use the bathroom when necessary, and can get snacks in the dining car. The adults, other than the occasional cell-phone nut, are quiet. Nobody needs to bump into anyone on the way out of their seat because there's legroom. The stewards are pleasant.
Remember the psych experiments where a bunch of rats was put into a space that was too small and they got mean and attacked each other? Apply that to Coach Class in a regular airline.
I've taken Amtrak in the NE Corridor. It is FAR more civilized than flying. The kids are betterbehaved- undoubtedly because they have a little wiggle room, can use the bathroom when necessary, and can get snacks in the dining car. The adults, other than the occasional cell-phone nut, are quiet. Nobody needs to bump into anyone on the way out of their seat because there's legroom. The stewards are pleasant.
Remember the psych experiments where a bunch of rats was put into a space that was too small and they got mean and attacked each other? Apply that to Coach Class in a regular airline.
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On the related topic of gentility, most New Yorkers go through the motions of politeness, although I would be hard-pressed to call New Yorkers "genteel."
But on any given Saturday or Sunday, I would guess that as a percentage of population, more New Yorkers are in suit and tie than any other city in the western hemisphere.
Originally Posted by fastflyer
You might consider moving to New York. Despite our politics (agreeable to some, disagreeable to others), we dress well. Including on weekends. Just returned from la Grenouille on a weekend night, where every male diner was in suit and tie. Every single one. On the related topic of gentility, most New Yorkers go through the motions of politeness, although I would be hard-pressed to call New Yorkers "genteel."
But on any given Saturday or Sunday, I would guess that as a percentage of population, more New Yorkers are in suit and tie than any other city in the western hemisphere.
I have to start with a
. I do like when people dress well..but in this case just asking some to dress! I just feel some of our standards have fallen to the side. I will admit I dress comfy for a flight but comfy doesn't mean to pull the dirtest balled up thing out from underneath the bed and put it on. I also feel that peoples manners have fallen to the side. I don't know how many times I have seen gents or an able body women pass someone that clearily needs help w/ a bag or something. Look at it this way if it was your Mother or Father or YOU needing help you would want someone to give that extra hand.
I have PLENTY of everyday manners that need to be improved if all would like me to take up about a page and get them off of my chest...many I am sure will agree with me...and if you don't maybe you can explain why it's not rude.
Again I say it all goes back to the "golden rules" of life and some good ole common sense. <-and if you don't have any of this about dressing..just remember the movie Fast Times at Ridgemont High...No Shirt No Shoes No Service!
Oh and I can say over the summer I flew into LGA and spent some time over in Long Island..one I was amazed by the beauty of Cold Springs Harbor..its not all concrete in NY. But just as yall talk about us Southerners we talk about you!
and having heard all of the oh they are so RUDE comments-I was trying not to have some pre judgements going into the trip but I was ready for anything. I can say happily I got to tell all that made those comments they were just narrowed minded...and they should really see for themselves...and rude people are everywhere nowdays.
Everyone that I ran into was very nice and polite except for 2 that I could have gone redneck stupid on. The first being the cab getter guy (dont know what he is called but he seems to hussle cab jobs for the actual cabbies outside the airport) but how many times do I have to say no thank you before you get the point? And the second being a very snobby winch at one of the hotels we stayed at....but all in all I came back with a great impression and hoping our travel lets us get into the city next time...maybe we will get to the try the La Grenouille.
Oh and it was nice bc everyone seemed to want to talk to us...thought it was funny when they pointed out our accents!
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That's people w/ an elitist attitude or some other issue.Originally Posted by chuckd
I'm 25, and when I wore jeans on my recent flights in biz on LH old people in suits gave me dirty looks. Next couple flights black slacks and button up and dress shoes and everything is fine.
Sadly, times have changed. I do notice more and more young people just don't have any considerations for others.
It really boils down to poor parenting and upbringing.
When I was young, if you bump into someone, your parents would tell you to tell whoever you bumped, "Excuse me."
Nowadays, when a youngster bumps into you, its parents don't even bat an eyelid to even suggest to little "Timmy" say, "Excuse me."
I've witnessed way too many misbehaving children during my travels, and way too many parents don't do a darn thing but just sit there when their kids cause mayhem and bother others.
As for what people wear, jeans and shorts are fine with me. Because just because you're on business, doesn't mean other people are. And, with only so many pieces of checked pieces allowed for check in, why on earth would anyone want to bring a suit when you don't need to?
It really boils down to poor parenting and upbringing.
When I was young, if you bump into someone, your parents would tell you to tell whoever you bumped, "Excuse me."
Nowadays, when a youngster bumps into you, its parents don't even bat an eyelid to even suggest to little "Timmy" say, "Excuse me."
I've witnessed way too many misbehaving children during my travels, and way too many parents don't do a darn thing but just sit there when their kids cause mayhem and bother others.
As for what people wear, jeans and shorts are fine with me. Because just because you're on business, doesn't mean other people are. And, with only so many pieces of checked pieces allowed for check in, why on earth would anyone want to bring a suit when you don't need to?
Every generation despairs of the generation that follows. People always think the young 'uns will be the doom of civilized society.
Aside from the occasional encounters with people who are in a Big Fat Hurry, my experience of air travel is approximately as genteel as driving in American cities or walking the streets of Denver. People are people. Some will hold the door open for me; others will cut me off in their haste. I find it hard to get wound up over the behavior of others. (Except when cheaters duck under the security barriers at DIA that are festooned with fifteen signs telling travelers to go around to the proper line entrance. For some reason, that really punches my buttons.
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As for flying attire: I go for smart-casual with an emphasis on comfort, accessorized with a piece of interesting jewelry and a pleasant smile.
Aside from the occasional encounters with people who are in a Big Fat Hurry, my experience of air travel is approximately as genteel as driving in American cities or walking the streets of Denver. People are people. Some will hold the door open for me; others will cut me off in their haste. I find it hard to get wound up over the behavior of others. (Except when cheaters duck under the security barriers at DIA that are festooned with fifteen signs telling travelers to go around to the proper line entrance. For some reason, that really punches my buttons.
)As for flying attire: I go for smart-casual with an emphasis on comfort, accessorized with a piece of interesting jewelry and a pleasant smile.
Whilst I do agree about the points on civility, I couldn't give a tinkers cuss about the dress of my fellow passengers.
When travelling for work, I am usually a business casual or suit type of bloke, when travelling on my own money for leisure, I'll dress how I want to, thank you. That usually means jeans, or shorts in very hot climates.
I've seen the occasional snide look from besuited business travellers in J when I get on board, but I console myself with the thought that the airline doesn't care.
The only time I have ever felt a little guilty was when I was flying to Berlin once for the weekend and wanted to go hand-luggage only in Club Europe, so I wore my leather jeans, leather jacket and 9-hole boots to fly. I did think a couple of passengers jaws were going to drop off, but both FA's were lovely.
When travelling for work, I am usually a business casual or suit type of bloke, when travelling on my own money for leisure, I'll dress how I want to, thank you. That usually means jeans, or shorts in very hot climates.
I've seen the occasional snide look from besuited business travellers in J when I get on board, but I console myself with the thought that the airline doesn't care.
The only time I have ever felt a little guilty was when I was flying to Berlin once for the weekend and wanted to go hand-luggage only in Club Europe, so I wore my leather jeans, leather jacket and 9-hole boots to fly. I did think a couple of passengers jaws were going to drop off, but both FA's were lovely.
In Memoriam
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Reminds me of this guy in a suit at the Sydney AU (SYD) Qantas Club (QP) who was yelling madly into his phone about how this was a million dollar deal, how it was worth millions to his company in profits, and how it had to be clinched. Whilst all of this was going on, the phone rang in his ear.Originally Posted by tfong007
I find that Europeans are more polite. Less yelling on the cell phone.
He moved away very VERY quickly, whilst we all had smirks on our faces.
Dave
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Or apply that to the increasingly crowded and hectic world we live in today. Originally Posted by Athena53
Remember the psych experiments where a bunch of rats was put into a space that was too small and they got mean and attacked each other? Apply that to Coach Class in a regular airline.
Youre not too old, UNITEDBILL. But times have indeed changed from back when you were twenty-five years old. Without a doubt standards for public behavior and dress have relaxed considerably over the past forty years. In some ways, I like the more relaxed standards, in others I dont. Growing up in the 1960s, most people always dressed nicely if they were traveling somewhere. It didnt seem strange then or a big bother because thats just the way things were done. Period.
One might examine the larger picture of why people ever felt it was important to dress appropriately when out in public, be that on a plane, going to a restaurant, museum, whatever
I'm just speculating here but I remember hearing the term Polite Society years ago. Polite Society seemed to be predominantly populated by the wealthy, well bred and well educated, and though it was by no means limited to those folks, a couple of hundred years ago they seemed to make up the bulk of its adherents. On the whole, it seems that social mores affecting all of us generally evolved from the standards set by Polite Society of old.
It always seemed to me that the idea of dressing nicely while out in public was something that originated in Polite Society because it was deemed "civilized" to be on your best behavior and appearance when strolling out into the world. Dressing shabbily was the province of riff raff and ragamuffins and certainly no self respecting member of Polite Society would ever deign to be seen out and about in anything less then respectable threads. Back then, as with today, people judged you by the choices you make and choosing to dress shabbily in public said heaps about your approach to life in general. Amongst more than a few today, it still does.
In Polite Society at least, I imagine there were repercussions to poor dress and behavior as well. For example, you might no longer be invited to formal dinners or debutante balls. The loss of Networking possibilities amongst the Good Old Boy network commonly in attendance at such functions could impact your upward mobility considerably. You'd have to hang out at the Public Bar ("Pub") with the roughnecks and drink beer instead of fine champagne and liqueurs. (Gasp! For shame!)
Of course back then, in some quarters such as nicer restaurants, hotels or businesses, if you werent dressed appropriately they wouldnt even let you in the door. It was a dress code designed to keep out the "riff raff" with their generally lower standards of dress and behavior.
Moving on to the world of inter-city public transportation, there once was a time that only the very well to do could afford to travel longer distances. This was especially true when it came to airplanes. And of course back then, travelling great distances was still looked at as an event, not just another plane flight as with today. Perhaps because traveling was seen as something special, people dressed accordingly. At least back then. You'd hardly call domestic flight in America "special" anymore.
To address some of the exceedingly relaxed dress standards now seen in public forums such as airplanes, or boorish behavior such as inflicting cell phone conversations on everyone within earshot would involve discussing the hows and whys of our societys diminishing lack of respect for one another. That might be best discussed in another forum.
Personally, Im glad some things changed from forty years ago. For example, I dont think its necessary to wear a suit when you fly. If anything, its impractical to wear expensive, formal clothing while sitting for long hours in a cramped seat. However, one can dress comfortably without resorting to dirty or torn or insufficient clothing. In general though, Im not too bothered over what I see being worn on airplanes. Im a jeans and button down shirt man myself, usually with a nice tweed sports jacket, so who knows I may offend some people. Want long hair and a beard? Go for it. People holding hands and kissing in public doesnt bother me, either. Tattoos and piercings? Hey, its your body
On the other hand, people full out lip locking in a nice restaurant or on an airplane is not in good form. Taking off your shoes, and/or socks, and putting your potentially smelly feet up on the bulkhead is thoughtless towards your fellow passengers. Loudly inflicting your cell phone conversations on your surrounding brethren is boorish and rude. Going into a very nice restaurant dressed in old jeans and a t-shirt when the established (and desired) tradition of the restaurant and the diners clearly requests formal attire is disrespectful to both the restaurant and its diners. The list goes on. I see alot of this type of behavior these days and unfortunately, it seems to be considered increasingly acceptable.
What about that noisy ice breaking coming from back in the galley? Back in the Sixties, if ice needed to be broken, it was first placed in a couple of towels and then broken. This minimized noise. Believe me, Ive seen it done onboard many times. At the time, this was deemed the proper, less intrusive way to do it and flight attendants were trained accordingly. Why? It was respectful to the passengers not to intrude upon them with all that sharp noise. Some might even say it was more civilized. For sure it was more polite. Today, all that noise is just considered par for the course. Standards have indeed been lowered.
Still, its not an airline problem, its a societal problem. I really do feel that in todays society, some of the standards that were deemed important to a civilized existence forty years ago have indeed eroded. We are not as polite as we once were. That politeness is borne of respect for our fellow human beings and theres a lot less of that than there once was.
George Bush Sr. (who I didnt vote for) spoke of a kinder, gentler nation but today we applaud gangsta rappers for their artistic lyrics and admire some athletes and movie stars despite their increasingly rude behavior on and off the court or stage. What was once considered poor sportsmanship and lack of respect for the opponent is now considered an appropriate show of exultation for having essentially done what the job paid you to do. Increasingly, its more about the individual than the team.
Society is a team, too. We can either behave respectfully amongst eachother or descend into an increasingly nasty state of affairs. Although I think were still a long way from that, were definitely exploring the road that leads in that direction.
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Sorry for the length of this response. I don't know what came over me. Could be this delicious James Squire Pilsner that I've been quaffing all afternoon?!
Interesting thread.
It was point 2 that caught my attention. I am absolutely tired of being hit in the shoulder and the head by people walking by my seat with their carry-on luggage. I been bruised, battered and even bloodied with very few people apologizing. One time I grabbed the bag that had just bounced off my head and yanked it. As I am bald, there is no padding to soften the blow. The flight attendant who was nearby, and saw the entire incident, then chastized the passenger while getting me ice for the bruise on my head. If you have a backpack on one shoulder, and it hangs to the side, what do you think will happen when you get into the confines of the aisles in the aircraft cabin?
It was point 2 that caught my attention. I am absolutely tired of being hit in the shoulder and the head by people walking by my seat with their carry-on luggage. I been bruised, battered and even bloodied with very few people apologizing. One time I grabbed the bag that had just bounced off my head and yanked it. As I am bald, there is no padding to soften the blow. The flight attendant who was nearby, and saw the entire incident, then chastized the passenger while getting me ice for the bruise on my head. If you have a backpack on one shoulder, and it hangs to the side, what do you think will happen when you get into the confines of the aisles in the aircraft cabin?
In Memoriam
I am presentable when traveling in coach. (clean conservative slacks/shirt or conservative shorts/shirt in warm weather). When I travel in intl biz/F & domestic F, I usually dress up more. Since I don't travel for biz, I don't usually wear suits. When I traveled for job interviews in the 1980s/early 90's, I usually wore a suit when flying. Especially if the interviewers are meeting me at the arriving airport!
One thing I wish the US airports have are showers! I feel guilty not having showered for many hours and most of the connecting airports in the US do not have showers that the public can use for low cost/free. Some of the overseas airports I'd been to (SYD, MEL, etc) have either free/low cost showers. It is nice to use these facilities when connecting and/or arriving.
Since I have at least mid/top status on a few airlines, alot of the lounges (especially overseas) have showers and it is very nice. Presently, I don't have to do a limited body cleanup in the airplane's lav very often due to alot of lounge access I have now.
I am tolerant of a slightly "smelly" person that have travelled 12-24 hrs in a airplane to the US arrival point & having to connect in a US airport where there are no public shower facilites. I am less tolerant of someone who started in the US that didn't have a shower & could have taken a shower.
I do my best not to be in anyone's way & let the F/A's do their job.
One thing I wish the US airports have are showers! I feel guilty not having showered for many hours and most of the connecting airports in the US do not have showers that the public can use for low cost/free. Some of the overseas airports I'd been to (SYD, MEL, etc) have either free/low cost showers. It is nice to use these facilities when connecting and/or arriving.
Since I have at least mid/top status on a few airlines, alot of the lounges (especially overseas) have showers and it is very nice. Presently, I don't have to do a limited body cleanup in the airplane's lav very often due to alot of lounge access I have now.
I am tolerant of a slightly "smelly" person that have travelled 12-24 hrs in a airplane to the US arrival point & having to connect in a US airport where there are no public shower facilites. I am less tolerant of someone who started in the US that didn't have a shower & could have taken a shower.
I do my best not to be in anyone's way & let the F/A's do their job.
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Youve got a few years on me, UNITEDBILL, but I too flew my first commercial flight on Capital Airlines in the 50s. And while I long for airline travel as it was in the past Im also a realist and understand that the times have changed dramatically.Originally Posted by UNITEDBILL
I flew my first commercial flight on Capital Airlines in the 50's.
Airline travel has turned into a commodity...which has its pros and cons...and you definitely see a different mix of people flying than you did just 10 or 20 years ago.
Thats not an excuse for poor or rude behavior but, sadly, I think were just going to have to accept that airline travel today is what it is.