Why does that become the problem of others seated around the special needs passenger?

That's fine, but from your first paragraph I think what you're really saying is that you need more room but don't want to pay for an upgrade so that people in front of you shouldn't recline for your comfort. That's not compromise, that's imposition.

If you need additional room, there are other solutions, e.g. book an exit row (the seats in front of an exit row usually can't recline), or a bulkhead. I'm sorry, but I'm not particularly sympathetic to a passenger who says, "We all need to compromise, so you had better not recline."

No less sympathetic than I am to the special needs passenger with a back problem who insists upon reclining all the way regardless of what imposition it causes to others.

Compromise would involve: Looking first to see what you're reclining into; Reclining slowly and moderately; If the desired recline is not possible due to space limitations, then the recliner should work with their fellow passengers to arrive at a solution such as swapping seats or timesharing the space.

Instead we get the type of selfish "nonpromise" of "I'll do whatever what I want and the rest of you can suck it." :rolleyes:

I think we've also extensively covered the fact that an "upgrade" is an inappropriate solution to this problem. Please stop suggesting it. Domestic F seats are wider but not significantly greater in pitch. What small increase exists in pitch is more than negated by the increase in recline in F seats. It is not a helpful suggestion.

It depends on what you mean by "imposition." As I've said a number of time, it is unacceptable to recline back and crush someone's knees -- my comfort isn't an excuse to cause someone pain.

I agree with most of this. I'm not sufficiently flexible to turn around and look. I do recline slowly (and agree that "rocket recliners" are rude) and will immediately stop if I meet physical resistance. As for switching seats, the standard concerns apply. If you don't want me to recline and ask to switch seats, I'd do so as long as it's equal for equal. I won't take a lesser seat just because you'd prefer that I not recline.

Who said that? I thought, after all these threads on the subject, I was rather clear: if you have a special need, it's up to you to accommodate and it's rude to make your problem the problem of other passengers. :)

I wasn't aware of that at all. Using UA as an example:

Plane............F seat pitch.....E+ seat pitch.....Y seat pitch
A319............. 38"................ 35"....................... 31"
A320............. 38"................ 36"....................... 31"
737............... 38"................ 35"....................... 32"
757............... 38"................ 36"....................... 31"
767............... 38"................ 35"....................... 31"
777............... 38"................ 35"....................... 31"

6-7" more seat pitch between F and Y is a significant amount -- half a foot or more. If you believe that F seat pitch is inadequate to accommodate your frame, then you really are very, very tall and should consider F bulkhead.

I have, once, encountered someone in F who insisted I not recline, not because his knees were impacted, but because he wanted to read his paper. I quickly disabused him of this notion, as confirmed by the FA.

Well, on those aircraft, my comparison point is E+, as it where I'd be if in Economy. You don't include the CRJs in your list. Seat pitch is tight in both F and Y on those aircraft.

Please also remember that seat pitch <> legroom. Seat pitch is defined as the distance between a given point on one seat and the same point on the seat in the next row. That means that if you increase the depth of the seat by 2" with no change in seat pitch, then legroom is reduced by 2". F seats are wider, deeper, and recline further. All of this (except width) reduces legroom even after the offset of increased seat pitch.

I do have to say that E+ does significantly address this issue. I can tolerate someone reasonably reclining in E+. However, it's that issue of "reasonable" that has us at odds. The consideration we've each described is incredibly rare. Those of us who loathe recliners, loathe them because we've seen far more blithe turbo recliners than we've ever seen thoughtful and considerate ones.

Trust me, I'm never unaware of a recliner in front of me. I am hypersensitive to any motion that even looks like reaching for the recline lever. I brace every time the person in front of me changes channels on the headset. I have a complete picture of the recliners I've been behind and the ratios of selfish to considerate are frightening.

All I want is a change in that ratio and we'll all be fine. Because regardless of what we might imagine on "paper", we're all going to end up occasionally on CRJs or Dash-8s with no option but to work together to get to our destinations as comfortably as possible.

I've never flown on an RJ, so I have no opinion about them. If they're as tight as you say, then other considerations may apply.

It seems like you're saying that, even in F, people shouldn't recline. I don't think you'll find a lot of support for that position.

I guess you'll have to define "reasonable." Clearly, it's not reasonable if your knees are getting crushed, and anyone who would recline to the point of causing you pain is being very, very inconsiderate (to say the least). However, I return to my original point: If you are so tall that reclining in E+ would cause you pain, then you have a special need and it is up to you to accommodate that need; it is neither fair nor courteous to expect other passengers to make accommodations for you.

We have different definitions of selfish, I guess. I consider a COS who doesn't book two seats selfish. I consider a parent who demands that I switch to a lesser seat because he/she didn't book an adjacent seat for a child selfish. And, sorry, but I consider a very tall person who can't be seated comfortably in a seat and demands that I not recline selfish as well.

I think this illustrates my point about accommodation. I've got a flying phobia and hate turbulence. I could fly on an RJ or 8 and pester the FAs to pester the pilot about flying smoothly while I jump at every little bump and annoy the pax around me. However, that would be rude -- I have a special need, and it's neither fair nor considerate to impose on others because of it. My solution? I avoid commuters. I have never flown on one (after my one and only time when I realized how much I didn't like being on them). Does it make things less convenient for me? You bet! I don't fly into secondary airports, and wind up renting cars and driving longer than I'd like to get to my destinations. However, it's my special need and my sole responsibility to see that it's accommodated. If the person in front of me wants to recline, I don't think he's being rude, even if I'd like to work on my laptop -- working on my laptop is my special need. I'm not going to "work together" with him. I'm simply going to do nothing -- it's not my place to insist that he forgo an amenity provided by the airline because of my special need. That wouldn't be compromise -- it would be imposition.

Yes, we disagree substantially.

I'm not saying anyone should not recline, just that an upgrade is not a solution to this problem because legroom is the same or smaller in F than in E+.

The analogy of the RJ is not appropriate. Turbulence is endemic to smaller planes, so of course you avoid the plane. Reclining is not endemic to all airplane travel, therefore, there is no need to avoid such travel, just to work together with your fellow passengers for a more enjoyable flight for all.

The airline lets me work on my laptop and even provide power ports for me. Why is one passenger's entitlement to a recline feature greater than another passenger's entitlement to my laptop? It's not. The need to recline is a special need under your definition (as, I assume are window seat passengers who didn't 'go before they left the house'). Those who refuse to compromise and work together in such situations are selfish.

Some of my pet peeves (I'm sure they've been mentioned in some aspect, but I only got to page 7):

• Passengers that seem to have no control of their carry-ons, clubbing me in the head or shoulder when I'm in the aisle seat as they're boarding (and most of the time not even noticing they've done so).
• Passengers that try to roll their rolling bags down the aisle and get stuck every other row (just pick it up!), holding up boarding.
• Passengers that take a lot of time trying to cram their overstuffed duffel into the overhead bin, ignoring the FA telling them that perhaps it should be checked, and holding up everyone behind them.
• Getting to your seat only to find someone else seated there who assumes you'd be fine giving up your seat so they could sit next to their friend/business associate/spouse. If I'm traveling alone, I mostly don't mind doing this (unless it moves me much further back in the plane), but I wish they'd at least have the courtesy to take their assigned seat and then ask to switch after we're in the air. I usually say no otherwise.
• I understand that coach seats are narrow and unaccommodating for larger passengers, but it's very uncomfortable to spend hours either 1) plastered up against the window trying to avoid being touched by the middle passenger's elbow/shoulder/legs/etc or 2) being touched by the middle passenger's elbow/should/legs/etc.

I feel better now...

Every time I fly at least an hour of my time - valued as worthless by the airline - is wasted: cretinous call-center, security or check in line, false "boarding" call, arrival airport unprepared. I bet you too have been robbed of countless precious hours - how do you value your time?

Privatized airports are indeed parking/shopping businesses focused on keeping their customers in the precinct as long as possible. No they don't delay individual aircraft, but they have no incentive to smooth the way thru for passengers.

My pet peeve is coach class passengers walking into the first or business class cabin to use the restroom.

I usually pay for my first or business class tickets, partly for the chance that I might have a more relaxing flight with little movement up and down the aisles and easy, quick access to the bathroom. When one coach passenger comes into the first class cabin, others follow, and the hallways become very busy and passengers will start congregating near the bathroom (even though it technically is not allowed). The rare times I will travel in coach, I make sure I walk to the back of the plane to use the toilet even if I am in the first row of coach.

People who use the top of the seat in front of them to hoist themselves up.

People who cannot walk down the aisle without touching the top of every seat along the way. Especially annoying on an overnight flight.

People who feel the need to turn volume up to the maximum on their Ipod as if everyone around them wants to listen to their music. Also especially annoying on an overnight flight.

People who attempt to recline their seats all the way back while I am trying to use my laptop. (Yes, I realize you paid to recline, but I also paid to use my tray table.)

People who let their kids play on the baggage carousel. I sometimes think parents are just hoping their kid hurts themselves!

People who generally have no control over their child's behavior, allow child to kick seat, crawl under seat, block aisle.

Don't travel on AA.

Which is a good point. However, I do wish people would look behind them before reclining, and give a warning if it does look like space is tight.

When people don't follow the rules. They may be ridiculous, but that doesn't mean you can ignore them. For example:

1. When the person in the bulkhead seat decides to put his/her stuff under own seat (into my foot space) rather than in the overhead. I will take the liberty to leave dusty footprint on your bag.

2. The person that puts his/her laptop in the seat pocket, even when instructed not to.

3. People that refuse to turn off their electronic devices at the requested times. Okay, I don't think it will cause the plane to crash either, but I also don't think you're that important that you can't turn off your laptop/crackberry/Ipod for 15 minutes while we land.