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-   -   ok to ask litterbug to put trash in can? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/568095-ok-ask-litterbug-put-trash-can.html)

MeNoSay Jun 13, 2006 9:49 am


Originally Posted by JTG
Interesting. In a thread about today's thoughtless "ME" society, a staunch supporter of the "I'll do whatever I want to do" posts under the moniker MEnosay. Then again, maybe you just don't know . . .

If everyone was as morally indignant over poverty, racism and warmongering as they were over leaving a newspaper on a chair indoors, the world would be a great place.

But you're right, I just don't know.

Moelstrom Jun 13, 2006 10:11 am

cultural relativism
 

Originally Posted by mpattdu
It's every traveller's responsibility to abide by the customs/laws/norms of the society he or she is visiting. That said, I really don't see how you can assume that someone who would confront a person about breaking a norm here (not littering) would knowingly break a norm in a different country? Why do you make that assumption?

Regarding your Greek example, wouldn't you think that a civil person, not accostomed to a society's norms, would want to be told if his actions were breaking those norms?

I have to admit, I haven't been to Greece. But that's one of the few places I haven't been. And while I have been to countless places inhabited by legions of thoughtless cretins who litter their heads off, I have never been to one where people did not appreciate being in a clean, unlittered environment, even if they expressed that appreciation by tossing trash on the ground.

Not littering is actually the norm everywhere, I am sorry to say. It just isn't socially enforced everywhere. In Japan, or Sweden, or Marin County, you'd be publicly shamed if you littered, and fear of that shame would be enough to make you hunt down a trashcan even if you had to go twenty miles for it.

In most other places in the world, the social contract isn't that well developed, and people act based on selfish individual interests without regard for the community or their standing in it. In many cases, such as many post-communist societies, this is a form of individualistic rebellion; when the orthodox and totalitarian concept of community solidarity and socialization has been overthrown, nihilistic self-indulgence is the only rational response. In others, it's intellectual laziness.

That's where the United States has drifted to in recent decades. We insulate ourselves from the consequences of all of our actions, and a sizeable minority of people is always willing to screw their neighbors. Trash on the seats is a minor symptom. Here's some more:
  • Overbuild your new house so it dwarfs the rest of the neighborhood. You can afford it, and the inside looks good, so who cares about what it does to the aesthetics of the neighborhood?
  • Drive an SUV monolith; who cares how much gas I burn, how much pollution I emit, or how hard it is to see around me in traffic?
  • Blast your music in the car with the windows down, or through ineffective earphones. My music, my life, leave me alone.
  • Drive nice and slow in the left lane; You're doing the speed limit, no one in front of you, who cares about the folks who want to pass? Not your problem.
  • Cut in line. You're in a hurry.
  • Bring your kids to a fancy restaurant and then don't keep them quiet or well-behaved. Let them run around or yell or cry. You deserve a nice meal, and babysitters are expensive. What, all you folks who wanted a quiet meal at a nice restaurant have something against kids?
  • Bribe your way to a hotel room upgrade. What, if it works, why should I care what it does to the idea of a system, of fair play, or to a hotel's efforts to reward its best employees, who will see the corrupt ones making more money?
  • Sleep with someone else's spouse. Or cheat on your own. As long as you don't get caught, what's the problem?
  • Zoom up in front of everyone waiting in traffic and then cut in. Some loser will let me in, why shouldn't I do it?
  • Crank your seat back in coach even when the guy in front of you hasn't cranked his back, decreasing the miserable 30 inches of the guy behind you down to 25 or 26. If they didn't want me to recline, why'd they put the recline button? What do you care if there's someone behind you with a laptop or a newspaper?
  • Cross the street at a slow stroll when there's traffic waiting. It's your right to take all the time in the world, never mind who's waiting patiently for you to cross.
  • Speed in residential areas. Not your neighborhood, right?
  • Don't yield, to pedestrians, bikes, other cars, anyone. Why should you?
  • Cheat on your taxes. You can, right? So why not?
  • Carry all your bags on the plane, even though it's more than you're allowed. The FAs will probably ignore it, so what if you're taking some other passenger's overhead space?
  • Smoke near others. You have the right to smoke, even in some areas of California. If others would like to smell the fresh air and enjoy being outdoors, they ought to think about that before they choose a park with a guy smoking in it.
  • Use foul language in front of others, especially kids. F*** you too, pal.
  • Change the kid wherever. Kids poop. People should just deal with that fact, even in seat 56K.

I'm sure you all can think of more. What's more important to think about is this: there's probably something on that list that drives you personally over-the-top bars-in-the-window nuts. There is also probably something on that list that you do often either without thinking about it, or while conjuring up some self-serving justification that relies on you having "earned it" or denigrates somehow those who object to the behavior. But what all of that behavior has in common is this: it makes life marginally better for you while making it marginally worse for others.

In economics, this is known as "the tragedy of the commons" and is a crucial weakness in classic capitalist laissez-faire theory; even the most hard-hearted capitalist recognizes that a system driven by self-interest has no way to preserve a common good, like open space, clean air, a quiet library, civil discourse, or a trash-free gate area at an airport. Capitalists build regulations to prevent businesses from destroying the common environment and ruining it for everyone.

Some civilizations preserve the common social environment through a sense of common good and individual behavior norms that assume a necessary amount of etiquette and community responsibility. So sad to see the United States losing that, and the few willing to stand up for social norms disappearing into their Ipods and ranting on anonymous boards instead of taking a stand.

Me included.


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