gldwebs

I was reading the bump thread and had an interesting idea...

Has anyone ever converted their miles into dollars by booking flights they think would be oversold with miles...showing up...and if you get the bump take the bump otherwise cancel the award ticket and go home? As a NW PE, I can cancel award tickets for nothing...

I only ask this because I hate using my miles for trips...if I put my butt in a seat, I want my EQM and Banked miles for my WIFE to not pay...but too many miles accumulating and my wife is too afraid of flying to begin with...

Any thoughts?

The Weekly Flyer

Thats nuts!

nako

Aside from being completely off-topic, I doubt it would reliably work, if only because you're assuming that not only could you get an award seat on such a flight, but also that you'd be able to successfully guarantee the bump on a regular enough basis to make your time outlay worthwhile.

Mike

channa

You don't need miles to do this, you can buy refundable tickets.

With that said, this sort of thing is generally frowned upon here on FT. I know people have done it, but IMO, it's a bit over the line.

EmailKid

You can always PM me, I'll be happy to take a few miles off your hands. Paying for same is of course not legal, but gifting is perfectly fine

EMK

bhatnasx

This thread isn't really Mileage Run related, so I'm moving it to TravelBuzz. But before I do, I will agree with the previous posters - this isn't really ethical & I personally would not do it. Also, I'd find it a pretty solid waste of time. Is a free roundtrip or a voucher really worth that much energy to go to book a flight, go to the airport, wait around, volunteer, and not end up having to volunteer, just for the opportunity to get a bump? Most of those that do get bumped, don't get them intentionally (although there's nothing wrong with "booking for the bump" when you're on a mileage run or a regular trip) - but often when we least expect it. The only time that something like this would work & have decent chances of working would be the Wednesday before Thanksgiving or the Sunday after & possibly around Christmas. And at that time, do you really want to be intenionally spending time in a madhouse non-frequent-traveling populated airport? Not me.

bhatnasx
Mileage Run Moderator

fastair

In addition to the above, the availability of award seats on sold out flights is usually 0. Maybe you would book the 50k premium awards to gibe you more availability. Enough people do this, adn NW no longer allows you to recredit for free. As soon as enough people scam an airline into loss of revenue, the airline cracks down hurting both you, and every other person who has that perk.

Sympathy from other FT members for you will not be great as you may take the seat that they wanted to buy or redeem on either.

Legal fraud is still unethical.

wldtrvlr

I have to disagree with the above line of reasoning. The airlines make the rules. As long as you stay within those rules, if you happen to benefit it is not Fraud of any type.

I have had it happen to me in the past with fully refundable tickets bought the day of the flight. Arrive to board the flight is oversold and they need volunteers. I took the volunteer got the refund and went another day on the voucher.

I have not tried it with miles, since it is harder to get seats at the last minute using miles.

Here is why I feel it is perfectly legitamite and both parties benefit.

The airline had no qualms at all selling me a ticket for $600 to fly on a RJ from DFW-AUS (about an hour flight) at the last minute (several hours before the flight) when they knew, or had strong reason to believe the flight would be oversold. The airlines thinking is, lets get as much for that seat as we can and then we will give some poor smuck that needs the money a $200 on there $125 non-refundable ticket, and the airline actually sells that seat twice. They also know that quite a bit of the DBV's that are handed out are never used. So the airline actually intends to make $725 on a seat that was only selling for $125. I do not have any qualms with the airline making as much as they can off any given seat. There cost is negligible since they send the person that got bumped on the next flight that would have flown with an empty seat anyway. The airlines goal is to make money. My goal is to travel (within the rules) as cheaply as possible.

Is it "worth it" to plan what flights would be oversold, go to the airport and hope, and then intentionally miss the flight if it is not oversold? That is up to the individual. It also depends on which airline, there booking patterns, etc. The one it happened to me on was the DL regional carrier when they were actually at DFW and they were notorius for overbooking. COex and Pinnacle generally do not overbook a whole lot. It is totally personal preference, but I definitly do not see anything fraudulent or unethical about it. If you feel that airlines selling the same seat twice is ethical and non-fraudulent than you have to say that "booking for the bump" is also ethical and non-fraudulent. You should not have a double standard on this. Remeber, we play by THE AIRLINES rules, if they thought it was unethical they would not allow it.

johnep1

I always get a kick out of people stating that selling miles is illegal. That is not the case. Selling your miles is against the rules that the airlines put in place, but doing so is of course legal (you are certainly not breaking any law by selling your miles).

nako

Depends on your definition of "illegal." The context under which it is used - being against the rules - is, in my opinion, perfectly legitimate, if you wish to consider that the rules governing FFPs are, in that sense, the law.

(I'm not suggesting that selling miles is a violation of government-enforced laws; however, stating something as "illegal" should not automatically imply that the government made it so. After all, no football player is going to jail over an "illegal use of hands" penalty.)

That said, however, I think that this thread has turned into an instance of situational ethics here on FT. Several people have mentioned that this is a frowned-upon practice that crosses the line - even though it, by all appearances, doesn't violate any rules for the FFP in question. One poster even used the phrase "Legal fraud is still unethical" to decry the mere mention of the concept.

In other threads (namely in MilesBuzz!), however, there are occasional threads devoted to mileage-earning schemes - generally involving the usage of credit cards - that generally involve some purchase, followed by a conversion of that purchase into a liquid cash form, so that miles can essentially be earned for free. There are three major ones that I can think of that have been discussed over time:

1) Purchasing large-ticket merchandise, then returning for cash
2) Purchasing gift cards, then cashing out the cards
3) Purchasing money orders with a credit card

In all three of these instances, successful use of the scheme requires a rule to be broken, either by the merchant, the credit card company, or both. (To summarize, 1 requires a merchant to violate policies prohibiting cash returns on credit card purchases, 2 requires a merchant to violate store policies prohibiting cashout of gift cards, and 3 requires violations of rules prohibiting credit cards to be purchased with a credit card.)

Yet, there is a significantly smaller outcry over those schemes - which are against the rules - than there is about his one, where no rules appear to have been violated. (Even a moderator has weighed in and called this one unethical, which, to my knowledge, has never happened with any of the other ones.)

So, why the hypocrisy? Is it because the risk for unfavorable rules changes increase due to abuse? Or is it because we only care about things that might hurt ourselves, and not someone else?

Flame away.

Mike

dartagnan

The benefit certainly doesn't exist for the amount of time it would take to perform this scheme, at least in my busy life.

Maybe it's worth it for someone else.

chuckd

Seems like a waste of time. Just put them in coupon connection. And good post Mike.

catflyer

With the IRS rulings, it is in all of our interests for there not to be a dollar value that can be associated with FF miles...

KathyWdrf

Doesn't this actually belong in MilesBuzz rather than TravelBuzz?

Analise

I am looking for the rationale in your wife's fear of flying due to a healthy accumulation of miles. Please elaborate.