Reclining Seat Backs
 

Although this topic was quoted in an AP news story, I am unable to find it here.

The airlines sell us a seat with a minimal amount of room. When the boor in the seat in front of us takes a snooze, we lose a good third of our precious space. The airlines ignore the safety hazard of this practice which restricts any movement in and out of the seats, especially for the passenger stuck in a window seat.

I say if Mr. boor wants to recline he should pay first class or business fare and go consort with his fellows. We in Cattle Class don't appreciate having to pry our meager pretzel meal out from under an intruding seat back.

On a flight from Chicago to Frankfurt I had to put up with this for more than eight hours. Solitary confinement cells have nothing on a hapless passenger trapped by a space thief. You can bet that he had my knees in the small of his back for most of the trip. The flight "attendants" won't do a thing about it.

I can proudly say that in all my flights I have never imposed on a fellow passenger's privacy in this fashion. The FAA needs to ban reclining seats as a safety hazard.

I believe they should split the plane down the middle, one side reclines and one side doesn't. This way I can be in the side that doesn't along with all the other people who are willing to give up reclining to know the person in front of us won't be able to either.

So...

If a passenger is 'so rude' as to use the capability of the seat as provided by the airline, this passenger is a "boor" and inconsiderate?!?

Perhaps those who are so easily offended by their fellow passenger should be the ones to buy a first class ticket. No loss of personal space there...

When someone relines in the seat in front of me, I generally try to make a pain of myself until they get the message...

(1) I find that I need to get up and move around every 10-15 minutes. This, of course, means that I have to lean HEAVILY on the seat in front of me when getting up and sitting back down.

(2) I usually find that I am more interested in putting things in and out of the seat pocket in front of me. This usually involves jamming something bulky in there.

(3) If there's enough room available, I'll also begin to feel the need to put my tray table up and down a few times.

(4) Sometimes I begin coughing toward the seat while leaning forward, but only with the most inconsiderate of recliners.

That usually sends a message to those that feel they have a right to take the space in front of my face.

For more on this topic, do a search on "recline" in this forum. There is also a 6 paqe thread here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...ML/011618.html
regarding the "Knee Defender" that covers this topic extensively.

You are correct. I can't even begin to imagine why anyone would recline their seat. It boggles the mind that no one has thought to tell the seat manufacturers that they added that option in error. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Mrukk (edited Dec 02, 2003).]

Why don't YOU purchase a seat in First or Business if you are concerned about space ? It's called cattle class for a reason....

I am disabled. I need to recline or suffer severe pain. If you try ANY of the above cr&p behind MY seat I will have you arrested for assault. If you don't beleive me, just try it. By the way, I DO have a right to the space where my seat reclines, unless the flight attendant has a specific reason why not. If you think you should own the space in front of your seat, perhapse you should get your own plane.

Flying BA, I thought it was nice that the FA's insisted that those who had reclined their seats had to pull them back up during meal service. Otherwise, it's near to impossible to eat.

Outside of that, though, every person should be free to recline their seat. Just because one is in Y doesn't mean you shouldn't have the ability to make the flight as comfortable as possible.

While I synpathise with your situation, I reserve the right to have you arrested for assault if you come crashing back into my knees and leave me bruised.

Go ahead and try. I have a right to recline unless the FA says otherwise. If you want legroom you will have to pay for first class. That's the way the airlines want it. They want you to be so uncomfortable that you are willing to pay three times the coach price for legroom. If you don't like it, complain to the airlines, not the passenger in front of you.

I generally prefer to not recline.

If the person in front of me reclines, I immediately recline. If the person in back of me then comments, I reply that it's domino effect and to speak to the person in front of me.

For me, a big part of the problem is that the seat back in front intrudes into my space without notice. The suddenness is so invasive my immediate reaction is strong anger and retaliation strategies instead of a calmer compromise/mediation approach.

What bothers me even more is woman with long hair whose hair is over the seat back in my space and men who cross their arms behind their head and rest a hand on the seat back.

Space/territory becomes even more important when one is herded through impersonal boarding processes.

Sylvia, flying international Saturday in coach

I would welcome the opportunity to have the police laugh in your face. I seriously doubt they would do anything. The only time that anything like an arrest would happen is if the FA on the aircraft ordered me to stop and I ignored it. And if that happened, I would simply tell her that I too had a medical condition that required getting up and down frequently, which would probably result in getting me reseated.

If you decided to persist in your "complaint" at that point, I would welcome a police presence at the gate, as the problem would be solved quickly and in my favor. And then the fun would begin, as I would happily initiate as many civil actions against you as possible. Payback can be hallacious; I suggest you remember that when trying to assert your reclining "rights".

The fact still remains that the space behind and in front of your seat is shared space, and the person sitting behind you has the right to some of it too. Just because you have a disability does not mean that you have the right to get your way 100% of the time.

I happen to be rather large person (tall and overweight)-- that can be considered a disability too. I think that the airlines have an obligation to accommodate me too. They should always provide me with a first class seat at no additional charge over a deeply discounted economy ticket, so as to accommodate my disability.

If you think you have an absolute right to stick your hair within inches of my face, then perhaps you should get your own plane too. When you buy a plane ticket and get on an aircraft, you have a right to get from point A to point B. That's all the airlines have sold you, and that's all you're entitled to. There is no specific guarantee on your ticket that you have the right to recline your seat; you can only do it because the person sitting behind you is nice enough to let you do so.

I think this is one area where we're just going to have to agree to disagree, as further discussion with me from your perspective is useless. I have just as much of a right to fly in comfort as you do.

If this were true the airlines would not advertise seat pitch. If recline is not part of the service, why do the airlines compensate passengers when seats do not recline properly? I received 1000 miles in my NW account when my seat would not recline. The airline called it "Loss of service compensation". That means reclineing seats ARE part of the coach class service I should expect, unless I am seated in a row which specifically does not recline.

So because you are fat you beleive you have the right to kick a disabled person in the back? What a fine citizen you are.

1000 FF miles because your seat wouldn't recline? That's a good scam!

I will be sure to book a seat in the last row or the row in front of an exit row so I can collect an extra 1000 miles on every flight. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/rolleyes.gif

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"It's as easy as 1, 2, C" -- Kelly, Married With Children

[This message has been edited by JS (edited Dec 03, 2003).]

At one time, I set out to prove that it was required to recline my seat in order to achieve the full pitch length advertised by a given airline. Unfortunately, this is not the case. The industry definition of seat pitch is:

The common industry interpretation (common to the airline manufacturers, but not common amongst airline users) excludes the actual amount of real legroom in the measurement - quite a surprise for me. IOW, the seat pitch may be 30", but an older jet with a 4" thick seat back has less leg room than a newer jet that has a 29" seat pitch and a 2" thick seat back.

One of many web resources can be found here. this one is unusually helpful because it lists the different pitches for numerous airlines and class in a single table.

It is interesting to note that all airlines advertise that their seats recline for greater comfort. This appears to be part of the standard marketing ploy. Unfortunately, the marketing effort conveniently fails to mention that reclining your seat reduces the pitch for those people directly behind the recliner - a problem most notable to those seated just in front of an EE row or last row in a cabin ... i.e. to those people whose seats don't recline but have a recliner in front of them.

GMF

No. I believe I have a right to enjoy my flight just as much as he does. Why should the pain of having the seat back jammed into my knees be given any less consideration than his back pain? Simply because he's disabled? If you excuse the pun, that just doesn't fly with me. If it's really that big of a problem with him, then I'll offer the same solutions as the "recliners" do:

1. Upgrade to business/first class.
2. Buy/charter your own plane to get there.

Being disabled does not give someone the right to impose upon the rest of society and expect to get his/her way all the time. Neither does being old, small, tall, fat, skinny, black, white.... well, you get the idea.

If someone feels they have the right to invade and take over all the "shared" space in front of my face, then I feel I have just as strong a right to do whatever is necessary to reclaim it (within reason, a physical assault with fists, etc. would be out of line and prosecutable).

Look at things another way... The seat that I paid for comes with a tray table in front of me that I can use for working on my computer during the flight. If the person in front of me reclines, then s/he is taking away my ability to use the tray table and work on the computer. I should be compensated for that, just as someone should be compensated for not being able to recline.

As to your argument about advertised pitch... The airlines may advertise that their seats have a certain pitch but there is no GUARANTEE ever offered that you as a passenger have the right to recline fully.

This form of advertisement should be interpreted the same way as advertisements of interest rates from banks and prices from car dealerships. Have you ever seen a bank advertise a home mortgage loan "starting at" 5%? That doesn't mean the bank offers a 5% loan to all of its customers, and it doesn't mean that you're ENTITLED to receive a loan with 5% interest from them. It just means you MAY qualify for one.

Have you ever seen a car dealership advertise a particular model SUV "starting at" $30,000? I guarantee you that if you walked into a GMC dealership and insisted that they sell you a fully-loaded SLT Envoy for $30,000 because they advertised Envoys "starting at" that price they would double over laughing at you. Again, it's because they are advertising the "best case" scenario (the cheapest price being the best case).

It's the same with airlines. They advertise that their seats have a certain pitch-- and that's the "best case" scenario. If there were nobody in the seat behind you, you could comfortably put the seat back that far and enjoy your flight. But in the real world, there will be somebody in the seat behind you and you will not (definitely should not) be able to recline back that far...

As to your 1,000 FF miles statement, I would argue that the airline probably just gave you that to get you to shut up and go away. It's easier to throw you a bone and hopefully keep you flying than it is to offer any real form of compensation. Now, if you had been handed a $50 voucher or had the price of your ticket refunded, then I would say that you are making a valid point.

To close, I must wonder why people like you insist upon acting ignorantly on planes and shoving your seats into people's knees and hair into people's faces for a few short hours of choppy sleep. Why must you make a nuisance out of yourself while on the plane?

Hey, HigherFlyer , see if you recognize yourself here .

I travel coach more often than not, and find that at 6'4" tall, nothing is more irritating than somebody reclining into my kneecaps. I like to point my air vent, full blast, toward the back of the reclining person's head. I bet they find that irritating too. Good...

-Michael

What a load of boll0cks!

You buy a Y seat and if it reclines then you can use it.

If you decide not to recline then it is your tuff luck!

If you want more room get E+ on UA or PE on VS or WT+ on BA.........

You have a choice, you pay crap money for cheap Y and so does the pax infront. If he wants to use a service offered by the airline then so he should!

It's been a few days since we had an invective-filled, vitriolic thread about reclining seats. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/rolleyes.gif

About time for yet another thread about banning kids from F and J, isn't it?

Reclining during meal service.

Kneeing the back of someone's seat constantly.

Forcing a recline when there's legitimate resistance.

Positioning your knees to artifically create resistance.

Needlessly pushing down on the seat in front to get up.

Thumping laptop keys on a table tray.

Sticking your headphones on full blast.

Complaining when you hear the slightest murmur from headphones.

Banging on about 'rights' when you're actually talking about 'the comfort afforded to you when you purchase a particular service'.

Elbows full out, not moving.

Insisting on an exact 50-50 split of armrests.

Talking constantly to someone who doesn't appreciate it.

Blanking anyone who talks to you.

24 bags in the overhead lockers.

Creating a scene because you can't get your bag directly over your head.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to a world of intolerance, self-importance and lack of consideration. Sometimes, you think the people on aeroplanes hate the sight of their fellow man. Sometimes, you just think they're headed for a stroke at age 40. You wonder at their constant 'me-first' attitude and lack of self-awareness, let alone their awareness for others.

One man's freedom ends where another man's freedom begins. We are human. We live in a society*. We live with others. We are around others. We are closed in very close proximity with others when we fly. We fly because we choose to. We know we are going to be with others. It starts and ends with you. There's no tit-for-tat, there's no excuse.

Choose thought. Choose relaxation. Choose tolerance. Choose consideration, enjoyment, celebration. Choose seeing those around you as people, bonds between which are the foundation for a happy, successful life. Choose humanity.

Who knows, you may even enjoy your flight.

(* Margaret Thatcher excluded, she said so herself. Besides which, she lives in Dulwich now.)

Regarding the discussion on seat pitch -- this has nothing to do with recline. Seat pitch is a constant, and can only be changed by unbolting the seats from the floor and moving them closer together or further apart.

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"It's as easy as 1, 2, C" -- Kelly, Married With Children

[This message has been edited by JS (edited Dec 03, 2003).]

Nope. The only thing in that thread that comes close to me is the fact that I sometimes need help getting my (one) carry-on into & out of the overhead bin. However I do not drop it on anyone, I simply ask for assistance.

[This message has been edited by HigherFlyer (edited Dec 04, 2003).]

Actually, I enjoy the extra air. Thank's!

Isn't there a rule about no personal attacks on flyertalk?
People like me? Disabled people have just as much right to fly as anyone else. The airline has no problem accommodating me. What's your excuse?
By the way, I don't shove my seat back. I am physically incapable of shoving.
And since most passengers recline even without severe pain, and because all passesngers must endure exactly the same seat pitch and recline, I think 99% of passengers will agree that the 'nuisance' in this scenario would be the person harrassing the disabled man. Even if I wasn't disabled, who the he!! do you think you are that you are more important than the other 75% of passengers who want to recline?


[This message has been edited by HigherFlyer (edited Dec 04, 2003).]

Perhapse you are just too fat for the tray table to fit between you and the seat back.
The airline makes no promises that you will be able to fit your laptop onto the tray table. The tray table is intended to acommodate the food service trays, not your laptop. The airline would prefer if you left your laptop in the overhead bin.

Not a scam since I did not request the miles. The FA offered them for my inconvenience, and I accepted them. Do you turn down miles when they are offered to you?... I thought not.

[This message has been edited by HigherFlyer (edited Dec 04, 2003).]

Well said! Thank you!

I apologize for confusing seat pitch and recline. However my point is the same. The airline advertizes that I will be able to recline. and compensates when standard recline is not possible. Therefore, recline is obviously part of the advertized service that I am paying for.


[This message has been edited by HigherFlyer (edited Dec 04, 2003).]

oops, dupe.

[This message has been edited by HigherFlyer (edited Dec 04, 2003).]

Those in the know will tell you that if they were just trying to shut me up, I would have gotten 'Passenger amenity' miles not 'Loss of service' miles.

I see. That's pretty unusual. Considering the number of mileage scams people attempt, please be sure to include this piece of information should it happen again so the rest of us don't assume you are one of the scammers. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

Regarding the advertisement of seat recline, please provide an example. All the recline advertisements I see are in premium cabins, which I assume we are not discussing here.

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"It's as easy as 1, 2, C" -- Kelly, Married With Children

No. It is just nearly impossible to work on a laptop when the seat is fully reclined in front of you. A laptop requires more room than a food service tray, and it's impossible for 90% of the population to eat using one of those when the seat in front of them is fully reclined.

And the airline makes no promises that you will be able to fully recline either. Point out the clause on your ticket or ticket jacket that promises the ability to fully recline your seat during the flight. You can't because you won't find it.

The fact remains that the space in front of someone's face is not yours for the taking. The fact is that when many of the people on planes recline they are being rude and ignorant of the needs of the person sitting behind them.

If it were up to me, I'd have all airlines disable the recline feature in all coach seats. If people want to recline, then let them pay the additional fare to upgrade to business or first class.

Sorry for my omission, and confusion between seat pitch and recline. I am still jetlagged after a month of aquiring new accounts in AMS, plus I'm still sleeping on a couch for another week of bizz in MSN before I get home. I have seen airlines advertize seat recline. Although I dont recall which ones exactly, MRTC comes to mind. I apologize if anyone feels I have been abrasive, but when someone says they will kick me in the back if I recline my seat, I get a little defensive. Also, of course I agree that seats should be upright during meal service. I never said otherwise. Meal service is a legitimate reason for requiring no recline. A laptop, inflated self worth, or intollerance of the disabled are not.

Sorry, dupe again.

[This message has been edited by HigherFlyer (edited Dec 04, 2003).]

You would appear to be confusing 'fact' with 'your opinion'.

I sure see lots of 'Facts' here http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif To be sure we all are talking the same language, Webster provides the following definitions for us ...

Just to be clear, most all of the 'facts' presented so far in this thread are, in reality, just strongly held personal 'opinions.' And that's just the facts http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...rum/tongue.gif

GMF

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by clrankin:

Quote:

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If it were up to me, I'd have all airlines disable the recline feature in all coach seats. If people want to recline, then let them pay the additional fare to upgrade to business or first class.

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I would hazzard a guess that most passengers are glad that it is not up to you.

[This message has been edited by HigherFlyer (edited Dec 04, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by HigherFlyer (edited Dec 04, 2003).]