Fingerprinting question
 

Hello, this is my first post, even though I have been an avid reader for years.

Currently, I am an exchange scholar at a US academic institution and my whole family want to visit me early in January. One thing that Americans may not pay too much attention to is that INS (BCIS?) starts taking fingerprints and photos of foreign visitors on January 5th. Since my family plan to come before January 5th and leave after this date, I am wondering if they are still subject to fingerprinting etc. on their way out. I think I have seen somewhere that it is voluntary on the way out.

This is important for me since they will probably choose not to come if all those procedures are mandatory, because this trip is not essential and they don't want to go through the hassle.

Thank you very much for reading.

Don

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/lat...19968,00.html?

If I have to be fingerprinted.....I will NOT be visiting the US again. This is not only crazy but a gross invasion of my privacy...

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kpc

ForeignScholar thanks for highlighting this, I wasn't aware that I would be fingerprinted soon on arrival in the US. Like kpc I can now see me not travelling to the US unless required to do so for work! I'm sorry I can't help with your question.

There really isn't any immigration check as you are leaving the united states, you show your passport a couple of times and off you go, you never actually stop at an immigration booth like in other countries.

I wouldn't call it a hassle, you run your finger over a sensor, smile pretty, and off you go.

I can think of many Americans being considerably less sanguine about this requirement being imposed by any other country.

Personally, though, I think this is more of a practical issue - delays in immigration queues which are already far too slow and inefficient - than one of privacy. The US and many other countries already record every time you come in and out. Why should a fingerprint confirmation matter?

I am sorry that so many of you object to being fingerprinted. If Her Majesty's Servants wanted to fingerprint me, I sure wouldn't let that stop me from visiting London!

A questionaire regarding your sexual practices would be an example of an invasion of privacy - fingerpriting and a picture to enter a country where you are not a citizen seems rather reasonable.

It actually gets worse. One of the proposed US-VISIT enhancements for January 2004 is mandatory "checkout" procedures at 10 major airports to be determined. The burden of scheduling these procedures will be on the traveler.

Similar to the NSEERS system, this means that the traveler has to actually schedule an appointment with the immigration authorities to "record" their departure from the United States and undergo an exit interview. During the exit interview, you will be required to provide proof of your activity in the United States. Failure to do this will result in a 10 year ban on future entry.

Unlike most countries with departure control though, the burden is on the traveler to get themselves recorded rather than the other way around. YOU have to call ahead to schedule the appointment.

[This message has been edited by B747-437B (edited Nov 14, 2003).]

I assume this only effects travelers requiring a visa ? I.e Visa Waiver travellers will not be subject to this restriction ?

I too am worried about the added delay this whole fingerprinting and picture taking will cause. Hope they recruit additional people to handle these added procedures, or at least open enough counters to handle more people.

Correct. VWP travelers will not be subject to either fingerprinting at POE, nor to the mandatory exit interview UNLESS they meet any of the following conditions (quoted from DHS memo on the issue).

* The nonimmigrant alien was born in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Bahrain, Egypt, Eritrea, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, North Korea, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates or Yemen - regardless of their current citizenship.

* The nonimmigrant alien has made trips to Iran, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Syria, North Korea, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Yemen, Egypt, Somalia, Pakistan, Indonesia or Malaysia - regardless of their current citizenship.

* The nonimmigrant alien has engaged in other travel, not well explained by the alien's job or other legitimate circumstances.

* The nonimmigrant alien's behavior, demeanor or answers provide information that causes the immigration officer to reasonably determine that the individual requires monitoring in the interest of national security.

They've probably had to do that because they are shockingly bad at collecting departure cards from passports. Why don't they just ban all *nasty* foreigners altogether?

B747-437B do you know if this will apply to NVWP travellers on transit as well?

For those saying "it's just a fingerprint" what's the response to this now? And incidently my response to that is, the only time I can be fingerprinted in my own country is if I am charged with committing a crime. If I am not guilty, then the records are deleted. Why should I have to undergo this when all I want to do is visit another country? So I decide not to do it, or to minimise it as much as possible, because that is the only option I have to protest against such a draconian and useless measure.

Thank you all for the information. I think I will probably not have them here.

Too bad I will have to miss a month of family time. For the US, it is about $5,000 that they are willing to spend, but I guess it is not that much.

Since my own country collects all of her citizens' fingerprints when they reach a certain age, it makes me wonder why not do it one more time. I think what bothers them (and me) is that the US is not particularly better than any other country to keep the private data on guard and it is kind of uncomfortable for a foreign entity (from my perspective) to have my biometric data.
Maybe it would have been different if the US enforces this fingerprinting rule on everyone including its own citizens.

America used to be the beacon of liberty and my country has been stricken with wars, tyrannies, all sorts of invasion of civil rights. I feel truly regrettable that I am even comparing them here and to see them converge (with a little bit of exaggeration).

Whoa! So, because of the lovely big stamps in my passport from Pakistan and Malaysia, and despite being from a country in the VWP, I'll have to schedule an exit interview every time I want to leave the US?

The inclusion of Indonesia is going to include half of Australia in this too...

Ooh, that's going to hurt.

B747-437B:
Holy cow - what is this!?! I know, you are always well informed.
Could you please post a link regarding this "exit interview". I could not find anything on the internet ... many of my friends/customers are from foreign countries... I may have to change my UserName soon! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif
Thanks, USAFAN

I am really not trying to start a flame war here, but since you asked what the response is now, I'll answer.

The only time I can be fingerprinted in my own country is when I am charged with a crime.

I don't see the relevance. When I am in my own country (USA) I don't have to carry a photo ID. When I was a foreign resident of Indonesia, I had to carry a copy of my passport and my KITAS at all times. So what? I don't have the same rights as a foreign national as I do in the country where I have citizenship. Should I have told the Jakarta Police to "bugger off" that I'm an American and I "have rights"?

Why should I have to undergo this when all I want to do is visit another country?

Because America is at war?

So I decide not to do it...

Fair enough. All other things being equal, I'd rather not pay bribes to corrupt immigration officials, get shaken down by corrupt police officers, and fear for my safety being an obvious foreign national in Indonesia. Still though, I'm not going to let that stop me. My original sentiment applies, I am sorry to hear that it's going to stop you.

Your FT friend,
-eastwest

Just thought I'd come back and add

Welcome aboard ForeignScholar! It's nice that you've been a reader for a long time but it's better that you're now a poster. Don't be shy! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

Your FT friend,
-eastwest

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"east, west, over the ocean,
perpetual motion,
traveling around..."

Not the case in the United States. Some banks have been fingerprinting non customers cashing checks for years.

In connecticut, if you drive a school bus you get fingerprinted. Do a raffle, another set of prints.

There are lots of reasons you need to get fingerprinted for things not related to an arrest.

Wow, second that !! Indonesia and Malaysia...yikes. I wonder if the tourism ministers of these countires are aware how hard their job will become in the immidiate future... http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/frown.gif

It is buried in a Homeland Security press release dated October 28, 2003.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interap...lease_0287.xml

See the section under "Timing and Delivery" for information about exit checking. Since the US-VISIT self service technology will not be operational until late-2004, the current NSEERS exit interview system will be utilized at the 10 designated airports and 1 seaport.

http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/law...ndividuals.pdf

The inclusion of Cuba is going to include half of Canada...and many Europeans.

It's too bad. I don't think this measure increases security but just lowers tourism dollars, so I don't like it. From one American to our foreign visitors, sorry! But, as is often the case, what comes around goes around so now I am expecting to have to be fingerprinted when I visit other countries.

Oh well, personal privacy takes another ride!

In order to work in my company, you need to be fingerprinted.

In order to take some professional exams, you need to be fingerprinted.

you USED to have to be fingerprinted to rent a car from dollar rent a car http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

they dropped that very quick..

and let me add my welcome to that of eastwest to Foreign Scholar - please keep posting!

B747-437B
Thanks for posting this .... After I read some of it .. now I am really confused. It will be a real "Zoo" at arrival and departure at airports like MIA, with thousands of foreigners... Thanks anyway.

Is the U.S. the only country that requires that foreign students and other visitors go someplace to be interviewed every so often?

Maybe it is just as well that people don't come to the U.S. unnecessarily. What do you do if due to traffic or some other mishap you get to the airport late and there isn't enough time for the interview before the plane leaves? Leave anyway and worry about not being able to come back for ten years? Foreign students might be well advised not to leave the country until they graduate for fear of not being able to come back and finish studies.

In the case of the original poster, he said his parents' trip was not important, so if they came and something goes wrong, this trip could be their one and only trip in ten years if they were banned and it would be no great loss.

Better yet, would handling cases on an individual basis as the rules (I found them! via one of the links above) say take care of somebody missing the exit interview to avoid missing the plane?

Travel tips:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/travel.htm


[This message has been edited by AllanJ (edited Nov 14, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by AllanJ (edited Nov 14, 2003).]

Thanks for the links. However, neither link mentions specifically the points you make above, in particular that one about having visited certain countries. Do you have a source for this DHS memo?

I got the info off a mailing list that I subscribe to, but a quick Google search shows multiple hits.

http://www.larrabee.com/SpotlightArt....advisory.html

http://www.immigration.com/newsletter1/splreghis.html

Just wondering. Will this be mandatory or at the discretion of the agent? Could prove quite a bottleneck, and I think foreign countries should and will have to issue 2 passports to their citizens; one for travel to the U.S. and one for anyone else in the world.

No real biggie but I notice that a tiny little islamic country has been left off the birth list, as has Turkey, some African, Asian and even European countries with large native Muslim minorities and also one of the largest Muslim (by absolute numbers) countries in the world. Won't say which ones and let the U.S. gummint figure it out.



[This message has been edited by terenz (edited Nov 15, 2003).]

Thanks. This is scary stuff. Not even China is that difficult about such things.



[This message has been edited by Pickles (edited Nov 15, 2003).]

I think it's actually a little more than that even.

Apparently you have to schedule a visit with a US consulate or US embassy to be fingerprinted and obtain a visa. Then you need to be fingerprinted upon entry to prove that you are actually the person who was issued the visa. Finally, you have to be fingerprinted when you leave to prove it's actually you leaving, and not a decoy, with you remaining behind.

Theoretically the fingerprints can't be shared with any other agency, except in certain circumstances, which I'm pretty sure include "some government official felt like it."

Except that Canadians are a special case and not VWP participants. Theoretically, Canadians don't even need a passport to enter the US, but it probably makes things a lot faster and easier.

Ever notice the NIC or N/C they write in your passport when you are visiting for personal reasons? It stands for "not in control."

Hmm-mm... the "Phase 2" bit of the second advisory is interesting. It's not enough to just visit the countries, the trips have to be "unexplained" or explained in a way that "lacks credibility". Here's the exact quote:

And evidently the exit interview bit only applies if you were designated for Special Registration on entry.

So which of my two passports should I just the next time I come to the US -- the one with a dozen-odd Malaysian and Indonesian stamps, or the one with a Saudi visa? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/rolleyes.gif

And while I'm at it, do US visas stay valid if the passport they're in has expired? I have have a G-1 visa that is technically valid forever (and exempt from the new regulations), but it's in a passport that expired ten years ago...

As of February 1, 1995 all visas initially issued with "indefinite" validity have been deemed to expire 10 years from the date of issue. Hence, the visa is no longer valid.

However, any visa located in an expired passport remains valid provided it has not been defaced or damaged and it is within the visa validity period (maximum of 10 years).

I second this!
B747-437B:
I believe they still issue B1/B2 visas "indefinite" (=10 years).

i am now completely confused, as a German citizen, here on a Student visa (F1),
which of the following applies to me:
- i need an interview BEFORE i come
- i need an interview AFTER i arrive (within 30 days?!?)
- i need an interview BEFORE i depart (for vacation etc.?!)
- i need an interview WHILE i depart?
- i need fingerprinting and a picture at ANY time (coming leaving...?!?)

thanks!

MazdaMP, as far as I understand it (don't sue me if INS disagrees!) --

1) you don't need an interview before you come, because Germany is in the Visa Waiver Program
2) you don't need one after you come, unless you've been to the suspicious Muslim countries listed earlier and can't give a good reason why
3) see number 1
4) see number 2
5) see number 1

So you don't have much to worry about... unless there are special requirements for the F-1 visa itself.

thank you very much....i got all nervous here... (i thought i'd need the fingerprint and pic, but not the rest...little do i know http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif )

thanks!

The VWP is only applicable to B1/B2 status and not F1 status, so you do require an interview prior to appearing at the Port of Entry (only exception to this is Canadian citizens).

At the Port of Entry, the examining officer will make a determination whether to enrol you in the NSEERS process. If you are selected you will be fingerprinted, photographed and interviewed again. You would also need to appear for a 30 day interview, a 12-month interview and an exit interview - as well as file form AR-11SR everytime you travel within the United States.

Regardless of your enrolment in the NSEERS process, effective from August 2003 you will have responsibility to ensure that your data in SEVIS (speak to the institute that sponsored the I-20 for SEVIS details) is up-to-date as long as you remain in F1 status.

Technically, you do need to file a standard AR-11 for all domestic travel you undertake, but rule of thumb is that this is not enforced except for trips exeeding one week away from the address on file. If you are a NSEERS registrant though, the AR-11SR filing is mandatory even if you just drive 2 hours to visit a friend.

[This message has been edited by B747-437B (edited Nov 16, 2003).]

so considering I am here already, the "next" time i enter the country will be the deciding factor whether I will be enrolled in NSEERS?!
I am already in the SEVIS, so that's taken care of... http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

Who wants to bet that all of the following explanations would, in the US government's infinite wisdom, "lack credibility":

• "I was on holiday."
• "I was sightseeing."
• "I was relaxing on the beach."
• "My employer does considerable business in Kuala Lumpur."

This is yet another weapon of mass harassment for whimsical immigration officers who are convinced that everyone coming to the USA is a terrorist waiting to be "weeded out".

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...027021940.html

I assume this person was travelling on an Australian passport...I thought after the Brits, we were the US's best ally on the war on terrorism...we even sent troops to Afghanistan and Iraq even though a significant number of the population disaproved.

What happened to the person in the article could easily be me or you http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/frown.gif

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kpc