WHAT???

The actual number of legal entrants to the US who become illegal long-term residents is actually closer to 1/205. That is less that 0.5%.

(Source : Statistical Yearbook of the Immigration and Naturalization Service).

[This message has been edited by B747-437B (edited 05-02-2003).]

Yes, now it is, why don't you look up stats from the 70s, and 80s?

Regardless, even with the new stats, why don't you look up how many Americans overstay their visa in Russia or China these days. How many Americans do you see on the nightly news, locked in some cage at the bottom of a merchant ship trying to get to China , Russia? How many Americans do you see on the nightly news sitting on some dinghy trying to escape and get to Cuba, Haiti? How many Americans do you see getting caught in luggage or the cargo part of the plane, trying to escape from USA?
Again, all I'm saying is this. When it's justified I don't have a problem with it, but when it's done for no reason, and as a matter of fact hurts their tourism business, WHY DO IT???

Inbound tourism to the USA in 2002 was down 16.6% over 2000 numbers based on preliminary stats.

That same figure is almost 40% for tourists from countries whose citizens require advance visas.

Conversely, inbound tourism to both Russia and China INCREASED in 2002. Care to reassess your statements again?

At the risk of giving you a benefit of the doubt and not calling you a moron, (hopefully FT won't punish me for this), I believe that US economy could withstand a little drop in tourism if it helps in the overall picture. Don't forget, some 'visitors' did not see our way of life the right way on that famous day in September, so if what this country has to do to stop this kind of terror involves checking every body that wants to come in, and as a consequence locks some real tourists out, so be it. I don't think Russia is there just yet, and ESPECIALLY when dealing with Americans. I just don't see too many of us overstaying our visits, and/or hijacking planes to destroy their cities. AGAIN, let me repeat myself, I'm only talking about American tourists going to Russia, not anybody else, and if you don't see the stupidity behind their visa requirements for Americans, than as they say....

One thing that's worth saying...

Russia is difficult in many ways, but it is very much worth the effort. It is a wonderful country full of charm and intrigue. Sure it's a logistical pain, but that also makes it memorable and unusual. I've been three times and loved every minute of it. The biggest surprise to me was how beautiful much of Moscow is. The monuments all over the place (first man in space, Victory Park are my favorites) and the 'seven sisters' are really breathtaking.

Good luck with your visa and have fun. Enjoy some inexpensive caviar while you're there.

I forgot - whatever you do, don't skip the moscow circus. I only went because someone recommended it highly, but it was great. It's like cirque du soleil (with better stunts and shabier costumes) at about 5% of the cost.

I agree totally. After all I was born and lived my early years in Poland, and one of the few places we were allowed to visit during the socialist paradise years was Soviet Union. Been to most major cities. Allow me to add another beautiful feature of Russia, or Poland or any other eastern European country, the beautiful Slavic women. Every time I go back I fall in love every 5 minutes http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif, but that's another story for another day!!!

Fully agree. I lived in Russia for a long time and it's a very beatiful country, especially Moscow.

Oh, some of the people I knew in 1995-6 had to spend days at an embassy trying to get a visa to enter US, then weeks ( and sometimes months) waiting for an answer. Very frequently they were declined without a reason being given.

[This message has been edited by yevlesh2 (edited 05-02-2003).]

andrzej,

i dont think the issue here is people trying to get to Russia "in boats" (I assume FOX News on Cuban immirgants to the US give you any thoughts?), in Italy we have a lot of immigrants from Albania and Poland (surprise!) trying to stay in the country (lets wait for what will happen after EU expands), yet Italian immigration laws are not any stricter than any other "westernized" nation (as you would put it). By the way, off topic, the only time I was pickpocketed in Italy (my own country, mind you), was by Polish guy...my father notice him trying to steal something from my backpack, so he stopped him, yet it was not a reason for us to raise this issue in Parliament ("Don't Let Poles Get Into Italy!"), it was just an isolated incident.
When you talk about what was happening in 70's or 80's, why dont you dig that non-existant statistics yourself, it seems that you know a great deal about "statistics", I personally don't believe such statistics exists, as it was poorely tracked due to certain political interests at the time. Yet, I do agree with you in regard to 70's and 80's, when Russia was a part of Soviet Union with all the "pleasantriesw" derived from it, many people did stay in the States permamnently, can you blame them? I do believe, however, the situation has changed dramatically, and if you have made you way to Russia recently, you may know that not every Russian just dreams about moving to the States...this is the kind of perception that FOX News and the likes gives the American public (I won't even go there!)

Russia tries to protect and control its borders by issuing visas to foreigners, including American citizens. You are implying that Americans should be exempt from this because they live in a rich country? I hope you realize that this is very irrelevant to what a country (let it be Russia, Poland, Ukraine, UK, US, whatever) wants to do in relation to controlling its borders, its citizens health, its national security and the whatever else they may find applicable?
US stands nowhere compared to, for instance, Iceland, when it comes to the standard of living, yet it seems like Icelandic people don't seem to see a problem in having to apply for a Russian visa when they come to Moscow (having many Icelandic friend and lived there for an extended period of time, I can attest). And so forth... Your beliefs that Americans should be given a visa free entry just based on the fact that they are Americans are exactly the ideals of the cold war and wishful thinking.

[This message has been edited by asnovici (edited 05-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by asnovici (edited 05-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by asnovici (edited 05-03-2003).]

I had an excellent reason to do a 48 hr transit thru Vladivostok next month, namely, a free three days on the cruise ship Residensea from there to Japan, and after looking at all the visa requirements, I decided it wasn't worth the effort.

The invitation was just one hindrance, and not the greatest one at that. Fortunately, I am old enough that I didn't have to get a letter establishing that I don't have any obligation for military service. It was unclear what it would take to meet the health insurance requirement. And maybe I could have gotten a transit visa a little more easily, but the Russian embassy web page didn't explain that one in detail at all.

Why do the Russians charge you more the faster you want to get the visa? Lots more, way out of proportion to the costs, like $300. I might need my passport on short notice and don't like the notion that I should "legally bribe" the consulate to do their job in a timely manner.

No matter whether the rules are reciprocal or not, the end result is that I won't be spending any discretionary travel money in Vladivostok next month. I've got to believe that tourism spending from dropping visa requirements would flow more TO Russia than OUT of Russia.

Issuing visas to foreigners is all about controlling, protecting your borders. Whether you want to believe it or not, the US is still a big dream, hope, to millions of poor people all over the world. If tomorrow US opened it's borders, millions of Russians, Poles, Asians, Africans, etc... would be getting on planes, trains, automobiles to get here. So, this like many other "richer" countries protects itself by controlling the influx of immigrants with visas requirements. At the same time, countries were the populace is pretty well off and don't have a need to escape their country for political or financial reasons keep their borders open to each other, because it does not create any problems as in Western Europe, and North America. I will say this again, there is no need for Russia to fear Americans looking for jobs, trying to stay, etc... while they are there, so there is no need for all the beauracratic bull, and as I said before, if they want to "tax" the tourists, that's fine, charge whatever the market will bear, and issue a visitor visa on the spot. Unfortunately it can't be the same in reverse, at least not yet. I know that not all Russians have a desire to leave their motherland, but millions would do it on the spot, if given a chance, and many of them would love to come to US or to one of the many countries of western Europe, and that's a fact. Ask yourself a simple question, why Americans or for that matter western Europeans are allowed to travel to just about any country in the world at any time? because when we travel, we come, look around, $pend, and once we're done, leave.

Wife and I went last year to Petersburg and Moscow. Booked one hotel for the full time. Got an invitation. Got the visa through the VA visa getter for $75 or so. No hassles whatsoever. Must have been pre mail in Passport time. How does one travel to other countries when the passport is unavailable?

Changed the hotel reservations, including spending a night on the overnight train Petersburg-Moscow.

Had a wonderful time, cannot get back this year, but will next year.

The US entry and immigration procedures (for whatever misguided or justified reason, be it a moronic belief that everybody wants to move to the US, jingoistic xenophobia, or just plain mean-spiritness) are some of the most onerous in the world. Not even North Korea is that much of a PITA (and I've been there, folks). Other countries play a game of tit-for-tat with the US, be it through painful procedures of their own, or charging the same "fees" US charges people for visas and entry documents.

I see no reason for other countries to behave any other way. Why should they allow the US to throw its tantrum, without (admittedly) petty retribution? If people in the US don't want such treatment of their citizens when traveling abroad, they should not treat their counterparties in that country the way they do.

And even then, some countries (such as Mexico, where there is no visa requirement for US citizens, but there is a visa requirement for Mexicans entering the US) just grin and bear it, for whatever monetary or diplomatic reasons.

You could call it anything you want, but it's a simple fact, that US is still seen as hope to many millions from poorer countries and in some instances even from other "richer" countries. Go to any consulate in the third world country and compare the lines for visa applications at the US vs other consulates. I'm willing to boldly predict which line would be longest, hell, I'm willing to bet the house on it.


Most other countries do not play tit-for tat

No argument there, I said it through all my posts that it basically becomes a 'tourist tax', and that's fine.


It's not just some, it's most, not because of some political pressure, simply because as you said, for monetary reasons. They love our tourists and the money they bring, and they don't fear any of us staying, beyond the tour/vacation time, which is what this whole thread is about. There is no reason for Russia to require that of any western national, and maybe more people would visit the culturally and historically beautiful country more often.



[This message has been edited by andrzej (edited 05-03-2003).]