UAPremierExec

Posts: 422
From: Las Vegas, Nevada - UA Premier Exec, AS MVP Gold, FlyerTalk resident *REAL* Travel Agent
Registered: Sep 2001 posted 03-26-2002 04:17 PM
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.... if someone is pulled aside at the gate for a random search and they find something, wouldn't that bother you knowing they passed through the "ultimate" security checkpoint and made it through without being detected?

can someone explain to me exactly HOW our government is operating and HOW these random searches are in any way legit?

Why not search the employees at O'Hare who get access by swiping their badges to get into the employee parking lot, then drive past numerous open hangars and even 2 active TAXIWAYS to get to their cars, then hop on busses that drop them off beside parked airplanes and luggage?

just food for thought.... is anyone in DC reading??

Nate V

Paulo

Posts: 298
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Oct 1999 posted 03-26-2002 04:22 PM
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My pet peeve: It is so blatantly clear that the target people on one-way reservations or last minute bookings - in fact each time that I have had a late change in plans, I've found myself virtually strip-searched.

Don't you think potential hijackers are smart enough to figure out these extremely NON-random searches and avoid the typical red flags?

I'm getting so sick of being inspected every time I'm bumped from a flight and rescheduled on another airline, and lo and behold, my boarding pass gets a BIG BLACK S printed on it.

There has to be a better way!

Worldtraveler36

Posts: 967
From: Malibu, California, USA
Registered: Dec 2001 posted 03-26-2002 04:29 PM
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Let me give you something to ponder.

A friend works for an airline at LAX. He parks at that airlne's employee parking lot and takes the bus to the terminal. He flies to Boston, where he connects to London/no security. In case you can figure this airline out?!

I am not worried about him, but some of the employees, that could concern me.


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Michael
AA PLT,1 MLN Miles+
HH GLD, SCI GLD, MM SIL
LE PRESIDENT ETERNEL DE CAMAIR-CAMEROUN AIRLINES

RustyC

Posts: 285
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Nov 2000 posted 03-26-2002 04:32 PM
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Yeah, I got the third degree in Minneapolis after coming off an international flight from TYO and standing by for an onward connection to ATL, which cleared about 10 min. before departure time. I had to have all bags with me at the gate (one check-in size, one carryon), and it was only afterward that I remembered that the checked bag (which had to go through the machine like a carryon and fortunately just barely fit) had a pocket knife and a small pair of scissors in it. That got checked at the end of the ramp and not searched, but the carryon really got searched and I got the pat-down and "take off your shoes" bit. Probably because of the last-minute change.

My husband and I arrived at IAD so early we were able to take an earlier flight. Even though we were arrived at the gate with only carryon less than 20 minutes before the posted departure time, they took us with no questions and no *random* check. My brother was in MIA with a checked bag and asked for standby. They went through the bag twice after asking him if he was travelling alone. Even though there was space on the next flight more than two hours away, they made him wait 4 hours. This makes no sense. If anything, we were more suspect for the last minute change. Maybe their real *security* plan is to make it up as they go along.

That's probably it. It's more difficult to subvert security policies if they're changing all the time.

d

When all this first came about, i too was worried about the seemingly uneven approach to security. Now that I've got used to it, i've become an avocate of the pleasant surprises that occur, like the above. Again, if security was too consistent, it would be easy for anyone to figure and and try and beat. I never thought I'd hear myself say that, but here i am.

Yup, I agree.

I hung back from boarding this morning to wait for them to select the first person for the random check, but they didn't pick someone right away. One of them came up to the line, and asked about the 3rd person there to be searched.

If you spend an hour thinking about how to beat security, your probably can figure out at least 5 ways to get around anything they have - except blind luck. So, if I can figure out how to get knives and guns past the checkpoints, how about those terrorists that plan for years and have millions to spend? I do not think that the security today or any reasonable effort in the future will be able to stop a group of people who have the will and planning to defeat security.

HOW TO GET WEAPONS PAST SECURITY:

1) Incorporate a knife into a indectable object. Much like a jigsaw puzzle where one of the pieces has sharp pointed edges. Once on board, assemble the knife from your "puzzle".

2) Bring knives or other weapons made of non-metal materials, like a nilon knife - http://www.domesticspy.com/store/protection.htm

3) In an isolated part of the airport grounds, toss a weapon over a fence so that an airline "employee"can easily retrieve the weapon.

4) Castor bean extract - http://www.nbc-med.org /SiteContent/MedRef/OnlineRef/FieldManuals/medman/Ricin.htm

or another choice chemical agent that the security checkpoint will be clueless to stop - http://members.aol.com/webmedic4u/Biochem2.html#Ricin

5) Stand just beyond the perimeter of the airport - shoot the plane down with a low-tech rocket launcher (or really good slingshot .

When you check in for your flight - the airline's computers automatically apply certain criteria to your itinerary. The computer is what designates you "random search victim" or not, so the ticket and gate agents really have nothing to do with it. The gate searches look a little more random because they aren't allowed to page you up by name, so they have to look for some indication on your boarding pass, but the whole system is designed to keep the airline employees honest. I swear to you that if they saw one of us coming with 500 pounds of luggage, they would be absolutely sure that we were NOT randomly searched. Tip to the frequent traveler: keep your original confirmation code with you and if you have to make any changes to your itinerary or pick up a new flight, use the old booking. It will have all of your information in the record already and may save you *some* of the selection criteria.

Since my company buys me 1-way tkts now. I became a prime candidate for all searches which include checked in bag search, full search at security point and full search before boarding.

Just this last trip going thru ELP, security (BTW, all of them spoke broken English with a flare of Spanish) the guard asked to search my laptop/printer roller bag, she went thru everything and I mean everything. To make matter worse, she had no idea what a portable printer is, (I have a very common Cannon BJC) after examine the device repeately, she finally gave up and called her supervisor which in turn looked at the thing for another 5 mins and decided that it was safe! Then the worst part: she found my portable removable Hard Drive! She again called over her supervisor and this time the supervisor had no clue what I have, so he called his boss and at one point they demanded me to check in the bag even...finally the head of security came to rescue and discovered that this was not a weapon!

I think they have a long way to go at ELP!

Folks,

Sorry -- long post ahead that may be viewed as "ranting" ...

This thread and a few others about security have been great reading. I finally have a few minutes and thought I would enter into the fray.

I tend to side with those who think that the enhanced security measures are fluff and window dressing. I say this from a couple of perspectives --

First, A lot failed in our country's national security system before 19 guys got on airplanes with evil intentions on Sept 11th. Witness the INS visas being issued to two of the terrorists 6 months after they did their act. Other than the President getting pretty upset, I didn't see anyone in government particularly upset or embarassed, let alone apologize. But, that would have required someone to be accountable -- a rare thing in a bureaucracy. The terrorists very skillfully exploited many vulnerabilities in our system long before they walked through airport checkpoints.

Second, enter the FAA/TSA into the mix. Shortly after I retired from the Air Force in 1998, I interviewed with the FAA for a senior job in one of their program offices building the next generation ATC system. It was the most bizarre job interview I have ever had. At times, we were almost yelling at each other. Their view of systems engineering was so narrow, it was shocking. The openly spoke of complete disdain towards the Airline Pilot's Association, the Air Traffic Controllers, and the flying public -- private pilots and us passengers. These folks are their CUSTOMERS!!!!

In 1998, I was put on to the FAA by a couple of senior industry leaders who were hoping to get some fresh blood into the FAA. They warned me that, when faced with Congressional or public criticism, the FAA retreats, hunkers down, and leter emerges with some highly visible act to give the impression that they are in charge and know what they're doing.

Those words echo loud & clear every time I make the decision to fly and confront airport security. In my non-lawyer opinion, procedures are a clear violation of civil liberties. Unfortunately, it's going to take a couple of big lawsuits to get this sorted out.

My reaction is to push back when confronted with lunacy. I'm 100% accountable for my actions and I expect security and airline personnel making judgments about us to be the same. I recently had an interesting encounter at DEN in which I was "randomly" searched at the gate. I insisted on watching them search through my case and laptop while they did the wand thing. When they were done, I took my wallet out of my briefcase and counted my money and credit cards in front of the screeners. The two screener said to each other (loud enough for me to hear), "You'd think he thought we were trying to steal his money." I responded, "Well, when we are treated like criminals from the moment we set foot on a airport, I guess you've left us no option but to respond in kind." Also, I bring a couple of folded-up paper towels with me to stand on if my shoes are inspected. Also, I bring a handiwipe to wipe my shoes after they have run the swab on them.

I witnessed another encounter at LAX. A young, well-dressed Hispanic guy was pulled out of line a few people ahead of me. The screener asked him if she could search his belongings. He replied, "Do I have a choice?" She replied, "No." He said, "Don't insult me by asking then." Her reply, "We do it as a courtesy." By then, all of the other screeners had perked up and gone into "alert mode", pretty much like my cat when she's spotted a mouse.

I get a knot in my chest when I see an elderly couple or a family harassed at a gate. I am insulted when I read about screeners passing out candy to passengers. I get chills when I read about a screener who admitted he searches only children.

I know my pushing back, however non-threatening, is personally risky, but, frankly, I didn't wear my country's uniform for 22 years with my finger on "the button" for someone at an airport to order me to unzip my pants. We have put thousands of people in airport security jobs in the position of making judgments they clearly are not in a position to make. I'm not saying they aren't smart people; I'm saying they aren't trained and aren't given rules that make sense. The whole system is built upon the philosophy of "If I don't make a decision, I can't screw up."

The only right we have left, unless we push back, is to NOT fly. I figure my household has spent about $2000 less on air travel since 9/11 than we would have. We now drive for any trip under 500 miles and my wife no longer goes on occasional business trips with me.

Other posters are right -- this will never get any better, reasonable, or probably Constitutional. I'm really disappointed by the ideas of "special lines" and "safe traveler ID's", etc, that people are willingly buying in to. I was reading the other day that someone observed that we are now a conformist society -- completely opposite of the non-conformist society in previous decades. I believe that if the FAA/TSA decided we all had to fly naked and chained to our seats, we'd politely ask the FA where we could hang our clothes.

If we are ever going to get results, reasonable people all over the US and other countries are going to have to say "This is stupid" and do something about it.

I just think about what might not have changed if Rosa Parks hadn't taken that bold step and pushed back.

Thanks for listening.

FliesWay2Much:

Excellent post, but the sheople will disagree with your views. "Anything at the airport's ok with me as long as it helps prevent another September 11," they're fond of saying to the reporters.

I'm so sick of people who have this "people who appear to be elderly or children should get right through security" business. In Palestine, children (both boys and girls) and older adults are part of terrorist organizations and are willing to blow themselves up for their cause. In fact, they are blowing themselves up, they're not just willing.

We've also seen footage of Muslim schools where they teach children who appear to be about 5 years old to hit Bush effigies with sticks and burn American flags. How can you be so certain that children won't be used, with or without their knowledge, to get stuff past security? And how do we know the "elderly couple" is really elderly?

If we stop searching old and young looking people, let's just stop searching everyone. Security is only as strong as the weakest link, so if some people get little or no attention (excluding a proposed trusted pax program), let's just give everyone little or no attention.

There's a lot of wacky people out there. One woman in in MIA crashed her pickup through a security gate, scaled a 10 foot fence and boarded a plane in the hangar...

http://www.msnbc.com/news/733024.asp?0dm=N29ML

One of the other items in the story linked to above is a man who grabbed his bag and took off when the screeners thought he had a gun in it.

d

Count me as someone who is against the current "security" procedures (surprise).

If bad people want to get into the headlines, they will take the path of least resistance and do it through some method other than the airport.

Then the totalitarianism inflicted by ourselves and our government will be moved to all public places and public times.

My hope is that we will begin seeing what is happening and resisting this encroachment. Terrorists have already won big. They have caused us all to throw our rights into the wind.

What's next is for the rest of society to become totalitarian, like the airport, and for us to "give up" our rights in our offices (because terrorists could be there), cars (because they can be used as weapons by terrorists) and on the street (because we or the next person walking down the street could be a terrorist.)