wideman,

You read too much into my posting. I did not say that FAs always (or even often) fail to perform during emergencies, just that they "have been known" to not do as well as we might expect. In an incident last year, many news reports cited the poor performance of the FAs, although the accuracy of those reports has been challenged.

I, too, am quiet and couteous during the safety demonstration. Even though it is wasted on me, I understand that it may be quite important to infrequent flyers. In any event, I hardly ever say anything SO important that it can't wait a few minutes!

Bruce

"...Somewhere along the way, we have lost compassion and respect for another human being..."

So sad that there is much truth to this - but perhaps we can ALL try to do our little part to prevent further erosion of kindness and respect and perhaps improve things just a bit! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

My dear friend, Jose Chiu, was killed just days before Thanksgiving day while commanding an evacuation of an A300 in Miami.

The Flight Attendants working that flight tried in vain for 6 minutes to open the doors. One door handle was actually pulled off the the door and was rendered unusable. The cabin filled with smoke and the occupants were screaming and choking. Suddenly, the A300 pressurized and Jose landed on the tarmac. He was killed instantly.

Other than Jose's death, the only other injury was a passenger receiving a strained back. The Flight Attendants did not leave the aircraft until all passengers were safely off of the smoke-filled airplane.

Due to the tone of this board, you won't see me post here any longer. I have met and helped many FTers on the American Airlines board. Helped them on my own time. Taking their suggestions into the Station Manager of LaGuardia and my Base Manager. Meeting with them on my days off, and spending my time and $ for phone calls trying to get a catering situation straightened out, or help with moving their flyer miles from another carrier to American while keeping their high flyer status.

Now I find out what you really think of Flight Attendants (me). We are only on the airplane to make sure YOU and comfortable.

Adieu.

Dear EA/AA/FA,

I apologise to you on behalf of everyone on this thread including myself if you felt that our comments were out of line and contradicted with your professional opinion but do you really need to be so thin skinned? Look what I copped very recently in Buzz for opening my mouth on the issue of infants in the front cabin. I just ignored the posters who I found offensive leaning on the principle that if you touch dirt it sticks and will make you dirty too. I have simply learned to be thick skinned no matter how hurtful various comments may be. Being selfish is not nice but we all have our good days and bad ones.

I sincerely hope that you will not abandon us for such an incident and will continue to contribute your invaluable information to this board.

EA/AA/FA: I don't know you have never met you and never even fly your airline if I can help it. But I want to ask you to reconsider. I for one think it is truly special that you have chosen to participte here...it shows you really care, and we need MORE airline employees like you.

I've avoided the topic so far, but I have a question for the board.

How many of you have ever had to prepare for an evacuation? (I know there are at least a few of you - some have even evacuated)

Of that group, how many of you now pay careful attention now to the pre-flight briefing?

Sure, the FA's going to do the briefing again prior to evacuation - if there's time (there won't be if you have a problem on the take-off roll). It's amazing how, during a pre-evacuation briefing, even the seasoned 1K's grip the laminated safety card because they (in the excitement and fear) have forgotten exactly where the exits are.

What is so important to read/discuss in the two minutes of the safety briefing that makes you willing to shoot the dice and gamble that the 763 you're on board is exactly like every other 763 you've been on and has two overwing window exits, instead of a door fore and aft of the wing, and you blow it during a possible evacuation. People do, in fact, die because of things like this.

Sure, the chances are infinitesimally small that your flight will be the one that week that has to evacuate, but where does the reward come that makes the risk/reward calculus come down on the side of ignoring the FA's.

I will admit, when the First Flight Attendant snidely says: "We are here primarily for your safety. . ." it cheeses me off. The fact is, though, that the months of initial training and weeks of recurring training every year make them dramatically more than cocktail waitresses.

It's most unfortunate that EA/AA/FA is leaving the boards, because, while I'm not an AA traveler, her posts have always been enlightening. I hope she will reconsider.

My condolences to her and all of her fellow FA's for the loss of her friend and colleague. A number of reports indicate that a failure of the pressurization system of the A300 caused the release valve on the aircraft to fail closed, and he died struggling to open a door to evacuate his passengers, because his was the first door to open, suddenly releasing the pressure inside the fuselage.
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...12X22314&key=1

[/pontificating]

Greg

I'm sorry we offended an FA who has reason to feel offended. But for every one of those wonderful FA's who treat their customers like human beings, there are a hundred who treat us like cattle. I think there are far more nice passengers than there are nice FA's.

The sad thing is that the few passengers that are really jerks turn a nice hopeful FA into a bitter person no longer interested in treating the rest of the passengers like humans. If the FA's could get some real sensitivity training on this subject and learn to treat everyone nice no matter how much of a jerk they are, we wouldn't have the inciteful situations like the one that prompted this thread.

I know this for a fact since I was once (long ago) a doorman at a bar. I would not let people in who were overserved. This was for the safety of the rest of the people in the crowded bar. The people I didn't let in would yell, curse, spit and threaten to hit me. I remained polite and steadfast in my refusal until they went away. That way nobody gets hurt.

The majority of today's FA's think they are better than their passengers and will not tolerate such behavior and that is the problem. Today's FA's don't take backtalk and may have you jailed for it. Yes there are many FA's that do know how to behave and don't take passenger insults personally. But few of them seem to work for U.S. airlines these days. Personally, I blame the unions and the airlines for giving in to the unions.

"...Due to the tone of this board, you won't see me post here any longer..."

PLEASE reconsider! Kindly do NOT deprive interested FT's and even for that matter, yourself, from the useful give and take of these boards!

Absolutely no one has been more offended by the general "tone" or "tenor" of this board sometimes, and too often of late, than I! Just check out the threads to view the attacks! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

At least think about it, please, rather than speak/act too hastily! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

With apologies to you on behalf of ALL those on the boards who have empathy for their fellow human beings! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

-Mark

I disagree Stimpy. I find most FAs wonderful or simply good. There are some bad ones but they are the exception.

This incident is awful of course. This FA should be disciplined or fired, this FA is burned out on the job obviously, and that happens.

I have read many cases of air crashes and air disasters, I have a whole library of such books and accounts. In many of them, the FAs were instrumental in saving lives, even heroic.

I think this passenger was very rude and stupid but shouldn't have been arrested for it.

Remember -- WE do not have all the facts and are only hearing about this through a very narrow channel. The FA could very well have been overzealous but, then again, the passenger may have done several things leading up to this incident that cumulatively led to his expulsion.

I HATE listening to the safety briefing, especially when I have been on four flights already that day. Air Canada's have to be the longest on the planet.

I do try to pay attention (or look like I am paying attention http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif) for the few minutes it takes. I even occasionally read the safety briefing card.

As PremEx said and letiole submitted, this guy should have been arrested for stupidity . . . and he was.

Enough of "stewardesses with PMS" how about FTers with PMS.

These are the passengers on the plane that you really must watch out for. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Of course I am ALWAYS quiet and pleasant. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I feel better about FA's after today's flight. I was on AA and the crew was great. They did their usual pre-flight safety annoucement but they were casual about it. I was in the 1st row with a colleague and we were chatting quietly during the annoucement, but the FA's didn't care and were joking along with us since no one in 1st class was paying attention anyway.

So during the flight I related my story about the HP FA. The AA FA's were surprised that she did what she did. They said they were never do such a thing. We agreed that if the FA's are curteous, these problems tend not to happen.

BlondBomber has it right that this whole story is coming from my fingers and I may not be describing it well enough. But I didn't think the guy was rude to start with, I think he became rude when confronted with a rude FA. Hopefully today's experience will be more normal for me since I'm going to fly AA more often. Perhaps I've become jaded about FA's from flying UA too much. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

. . . not that we don't trust you stimpy. After all, you do a little bit of flying http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

You just never know if this guy pinched her on the way in or whether the FA just got her 2 weeks' notice or the gate agent said to watch out for this guy . . .

BB: I gotta disagree. Stimpy is a terrible judge of FA's. He's completely spoiled from spending all that time in International First Class, both being catered to by and surrounded by UA employees!!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

EA/AA/FA,

I believe you took some off-handed comments too personally. I don't think anyone here thinks FA's are only on the airplane to keep us comfortable, and I am truly sorry for your loss. I believe the comment was directed at FA's that use "safety is our primary responsibility" as and excuse for their lack of professionalism (including customer service). It's obvious by the fact you do monitor these boards and have helped people here voluntarily that you do care about "your" customers and your company. I hope you change you mind and stay around. If not, I hope to see you in the air.

Sincerely,
Freefaller12k
aka Scott

At the risk of being flamed, let me suggest that everyone calm down and be reasonable. Flight attendants (if any are out there anymore!): Ask yourselves what percentage of time on your flights you spend thinking about safety. Don't give us a knee-jerk answer that safety is always on your minds. Tell the truth. Is it 10 percent? Five? One?

It seems to me that FAs spend the vast majority of their time serving drinks and meals and doing the other mundane things that they do. They aren't sitting around keeping us safe, except on those rare occasions when they actually use their training! Realistically, the people who should get the most credit for safe flying are the engineers at the aircraft manufacturers, who design and then produce basically safe planes. Think about how hard that job is! And let's not forget the pilots.

OK, I'm finished. Now everybody who is so inclined can jump on me!

Bruce

[This message has been edited by bdschobel (edited 01-12-2001).]

Bruce et. al.: The FAA mandates FAs on flights. The reason for that regulation is for safety. So, technically, the purpose of FA's is safety. In this sense any service they provide is an ad-on function (the Feds say the HAVE to be there, so they may as well be productive).

If the FAA did not have such a regulation, you can bet your booty that SWA would have few or no FA's in order to save $$$$. Just like Greyhound http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif.

OTOH, I appreciate (and like you have come to expect) the "ad-on" function that FAs bring to the table!!!!! And airlines DO have more FAs then are required just to meet those expectation.

I also agree that failure to meet my expectation of at least good service should not be "excused" based on the fact of the FA's primary purpose for being there in the first place.

But like many others, I find that a few FA are GREAT at service, most are GOOD at it and a few are AWFUL...same curve as any other service industry product!

[This message has been edited by kokonutz (edited 01-12-2001).]

As usual Koko summed it up perfectly.

Having prepped a cabin as Purser for a possible evacuation/crash landing, I can attest that the attention granted the flight attendants while going through the prep is much higher than the general safety announcement/video. Impending doom can be a motivator. Thankfully, there was to be no problem on that day....

There are certain procedures and actions that WILL give you a much higher chance of survival in an incident. I'm surprised by some of the comments on the board dismissing the benefits of having a bit of knowledge and awareness of your surroundings.

Sometimes, the conversations during the safety demo are loud enough that I can't follow the P.A. - literally. At that point I will ask you to please tone it down, out of courtesy, and to avoid looking like a fool while I demo the seat-belt when the P.A. is talking about the exits.... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

It sounds like this flight attendant at HP was at her wits end....I can only comment that if a passenger is intoxicated, blatantly abusive, threatening or appears too sick to travel, I don't want them on my airplane. There is no evidence at this point that indicates whether or not any of these factors was in place on that HP flight.

Kokonutz got it right on - most flight attendants do a good job, some great, some fair and a few are really horrendous. I can assure you from personal experience that 1 or 2 jerks out of a 777 crew of 12 can give a poor impression of everyone.

I'll never forget one flight attendant who I dreaded flying with - she was sooo over the top with the safety stuff it was embarrassing - she would literally shriek if a passenger got out of their seat while the seat-belt sign was on! At one point, after landing at JFK and being towed into the gate, an asian gentleman got up, not really understanding that we weren't "quite at the gate yet"....this gal proceeded to get on the P.A. and literally SCREAM "SIT DOWN! SIT DOWN NOW SIR! NOW! SIT DOWN! CAN'T SOMEONE MAKE HIM SIT DOWN!.....YOU - YOU - SIT DOWN!"
Of course, by the time she ended her tirade the plane was parked at the gate. It was pathetic, embarrassing and humourous at the same time. From that time forward she was nicknamed "Gestapo-Gail"....I'm sure the impression of all 9 flight attendants on the plane that day was gleamed from G-G and her behaviour.

Safety can be the biggest 'service' I provide to you, however unlikely. That said, I don't believe in dismissing courteous, attentive service with an excuse of "safety is my only role onboard the aircraft". Unfortunately, providing outstanding service isn't often valued and some F/A's feel a need to validate their workplace identities by going extreme on the safety issues.

There is a saying - courtesy is contagious. There are a few passengers and flight attendants who would be well to heed that...

On a final note, I'm really not big on political-correctness, but this is the year 2001. We are no longer 'stewardesses/stewards' and haven't been for 29 years or so.

(Hey, I'm entitled to a pet-peeve or two.. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif)

Thanks for the even-handed viewpoint from a purser. And I for the FA's I respect, I would never refer to them as a Steward(ess). But this one did not earn any respect.

This reminds me of the time a little boy flying on his own asked an FA for a drink. He said "Stewardess, can I please have a drink?". She asked him how old he was. He said "Six". She said "If you want to live to be seven, don't ever call me a Stewardess again".

It is my opinion, that being pleasant is infectious to the people you come in contact with. Being arrogent and stupid only makes them want to avoid you, and to return the attitude.

Surprising the tone of the replies to this string. I would have expected better from this enlightened group.

I have only the upmost respect for FA's when I am in their territory, and try to help make their flight a pleasant one as well. It doesn't cost extra to be nice to people doing a difficult job with the hoards of travelers these days.

EA/AA/FA: If you are reading this, would you be so kind as to drop me an e-mail? Thanks. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

FewMiles..

In catching up with the rest of the comments on this thread since tuning out because of some offensive comments mid-way down, I am dismayed that the tone of comments have continued to deteriorate (and it seems that I have been thinking this about other threads more frequently nowadays).

Could we try to be less negative and less offensive? I am certainly guilty of this on occasion (especially in 2000), but lately I've been able to ignore the one poster that upsets me the most.

And as much as I would like to see EA/AA/FA come back because we need more good people in this community, I don't know if I would blame her/him if she/he didn't.

In the past year, I have seen so many more cases of rude passengers than of rude airline employees. Believe it or not, there are some real jerks out there. They stand in front of me at the checkin counter, they are at the RCC, they are at the taxi line, and they are on this board as well.

For the record, I think that the pax on the HP flight got what he deserved. And I know that I am definitely in the minority, but I think it is about time that airlines stopped serving/selling alcohol on flights as well, or at least put in place a drink limit.

EA/AA/FA has decided to stay, thankfully:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum71/HTML/002299.html

And if I may add: Most F-A's do their job and do it well. There are always a few bad ones in every job and every community.

EA: I have NOT had the privilage of coming to you for assistance or questions on American, I don't fly the airline, but I have heard wonderful things about what you do for us.

You didn't have to do it. You did it on your own time. and We thank you.

Remember, you are part of the F-T family.

FYI: the title of the post may have been inappropriate IMHO. Maybe saying "Beware of angry F-A's."


[This message has been edited by Catman (edited 01-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Catman (edited 01-16-2001).]

Although I am probably one of the people considered offensive, let me say just a few more things on this subject:

First, I am not a rude passenger. I sit quietly during the safety demonstration, because I know that some people need it, and it doesn't hurt me to be quiet for a while (or even for a long time!).

Having said that, let me try to prove logically that flight attendants' primary function is not safety. Consider the extra FAs in the First Class and Business Class cabins. Are they there because the First and Business Class passengers need to be extra safe? Or are these passengers especially helpless (being very old and fat, maybe)? Of course not! The extra FAs are there to provide better service, plain and simple. The safety role, if any, comes into play very, very rarely.

I fly all the time and have for years, and I can't remember a flight attendant EVER providing safety-related assistance to me. Once in a great while, I see one get on the PA and ask if a doctor is on board to help an ill passenger, but I could do that (use the PA, that is)!

I have nothing against FAs, and I treat them just as nicely as I treat everyone else, but I refuse to be brow-beaten into "admitting" that they are there to protect me from danger. That's just another example of political correctness, coupled with a desire to make FAs feel good about their jobs (that is, to make them feel that they are more than just service people in the sky).

Incidentally, I do not believe that my views are those of a minority. Most people are just reluctant to say things that others will attack them for. I don't enjoy it, either, but some things need to be said.

Bruce

Originally posted by bdschobel:
...let me try to prove logically that flight attendants' primary function is not safety.

Bruce, I understand your logic to be as follows:

I believe your logic is flawed, because I think it's a fallacy to equate amount of time spent with the importance or primacy of that task. Firefighters, for example, might well spend more of their time playing checkers or shining their fire engines than they spend fighting actual fires or rescuing people from burning buildings. However, it seems indisputable to me that their most important (i.e., primary) function is the latter set of chores.

Wideman

Wideman,

I see your point, but it's not exactly the same situation with firemen. Firemen have to maintain their equipment, while FAs basically do not. Firemen may play checkers, etc., but at such times they are waiting to be called to fires, not performing a job responsibility. FAs are not waiting for an emergency while they serve meals, are they?

I have trouble understanding how something that is done at most 1 percent of the time can be described as a "primary" responsibility. I continue to credit the talented engineers at the aircraft manufacturing companies with keepong me safe on board airplanes, not flight attendants.

Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. To those who consider me an idiot, maybe you're right! And maybe one day a flight attendant will save my life, but somehow I doubt it.

Bruce

In my travels, I encounter a lot of great interesting people.

Some are passengers, who have interesting travel stories. Some are flight crew who are doing more than simply "collecting a paycheck".

Others include Ticket counter personnel and Gate Agents, who are courteous and creative to assist passengers.

And when I encounter these people, I give them a FlyerTalk business card. Nothing fancy, just something I printed up and hand out.

Because while we as a community know a lot about the industry, a few insiders in our midst can't hurt.

These people are likely to lurk - after all, who wants to tip their hand and be besieged by strangers?

While certainly everyone has the right to complain/advise about bad service, when it gets into a food fight, how many potentially valuable "insiders" decide they don't want to waste their time here?

Just a thought.

------------------
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

Yes, flight attendants (fortunately) spend only a small portion of their on duty time actually providing safety-related tasks. Would we really prefer it any other way?

I appreciate good service from the cabin crew when flying. I also appreciate the higher crew to passenger ratios when flying business or first. Agreed, this higher ratio is not a safety issue, but one more of airline competition.

However, at the end of the day, I really don't care that much about the in-flight service (if no airlines provided meal service, there would be no competitive advantage and I'd bring my own). I want the flight attendants to be there in the unusual situations, when it really matters.

Years ago I was on a red-eye from LAX to DFW. A short time into the flight there was the smell of smoke, which turned into a slight haze. I was concerned, but some of the other passengers, many who I assume were infrequent flyers, were terrified.

The pilot, while not declaring an emergency, took us back toward LAX while the cabin crew provided safety instructions and prepared the cabin.

By the time we reached LAX the smoke had pretty well be cleared, we landed almost normally and didn't evacuate (although it looked like LAX was prepared for it).

I'd like to think that if things had turned out differently I would have been able to keep my wits about me. But I'm not sure about many of the other passengers. The flight crew helped keep them calm and prepare for landing.

I've been on well over a thousand flights over the years, and this has been my only "emergency" experience. I'm grateful for that.

But I'm also grateful for the flight crews. Hopefully they won't need to use their emergency training too often. But that doesn't diminish their importance during the relatively few occassions they are called upon to do so.

Even if the safety announcement infreases chances of survival just 0.1 per cent it's worth it.

No sympathy for the passenger!

Even if the safety announcement increases chances of survival just 0.1 per cent it's worth it.

No sympathy for the passenger!

Other than the topic title, I see nothing offensive here. In this "tastes great, less filling debate"...I'd prefer better service, please give me "tastes great."

It seems EA/AA/FA sums it up best:
"Being a Flight Attendant is not as it use to be. Somewhere along the way, we have lost compassion and respect for another human being."

That works both ways...

Wow, endless opportunities to get into arguments!

The notion that tiny improvements in "safety" justify any cost are what led the U.S. to enact the ill-fated 55-mph national speed limit. Taking this sort of logic to an extreme, maybe we shouldn't fly at all -- we'd really be safe then! Cars are proven to be more dangerous than planes, but people don't have to listen to pre-programmed safety announcements on their radios before starting the engine (thank goodness!).

The "safety" announcements provide the illusion of safety, just like the "security" questions provide the illusion of security. If anyone wants to buy what they are selling, I have a bridge you may be interested in.

Bruce

I am considdering giving up flying, in fact, I am considdering moving to a farm where my biggest problem is that a sheep is in a bad mood. If it happens to often, I will feed it airline food until it decides to behave.

Maybe if we had FA's in cars people wouldn't do so many stupid things on the road and the highways would be as safe as flying.

The 55 MPH speed limit was instituted to conserve fuel.

That's true, but the arguments against eliminating it (which finally happened, of course) centered on safety concerns. Even now, several years later, people bemoan the "additional" deaths that supposedly are occurring because people are allowed to drive faster. (Whether they are actually driving any faster is a matter of debate.)

Bruce

drtravels,
Then perhaps JRF should bring along an FA to shoo away that angry sheep...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif


[This message has been edited by TransWorldOne (edited 01-16-2001).]

Staying away from the Nasty turn this thread has made, back to stimpy's original thread (if only I jumped in sooner!)

What was the pilot's take on this incident? Since the plane was already pushed back, obviously he had to make the decision to go back or not. The captain is the master of the aircraft and all aboard, so if he thought the FA was being extreme, why would he have returned? Obviously, not only do we have a FA who might have been in a bad mood, we had a captain who agreed with her. (Perhaps if the plane was still at the gate, the captain had no say. But it was the captain's ultimate choice for the pax to be removed or not).

While flight attendants perhaps were designed for safety, there is no question that their service roll is another defined aspect of the job, in addition to, not instead of, safety. If not for service, why would the airlines staff any more than the eight or nine required by law (1 fa per 50 seats)?

Bizjet

From my perspective (which was limited from being strapped in my seat), the Captain was strapped in his seat the whole time and totally trusted his FA. From my experience of over 1 million miles flown, the crew on the flight deck will always defer to the FA's and treat them as part of the crew especially when going up against passengers. I cannot imagine a realistic situation where a pilot would take the side of a customer instead of an FA.

That doesn't mean that pilots don't yell at the FA's when they screw up. I see that fairly often. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif But as the pilots know that most FA's will not go to such great resorts as they did in this incident without reasonable cause, they usually trust their judgement.