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-   -   boarding zone cheating (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/1610432-boarding-zone-cheating.html)

Tchiowa Sep 8, 2014 10:39 am


Originally Posted by roberino (Post 23493363)
I don't know if anyone has read The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins, but he describes how "cheating" or displaying leeching behaviour as a component of a whole group is beneficial to the population, however, if the proportion of leeches becomes too great the population suffers and will likely die.

It seems an apt metaphor for boarding group cheaters - the system can tolerate a certain number of them and the population as a whole may actually benefit from their behaviour in small numbers (as they're on the plane and being less of a bother to everyone else) but if the proportion of cheaters gets too high then chaos ensues and the plane is delayed. The GA's have to try and catch the cheaters out or their numbers will swell but their existence will prevail unless something is done to terminate repeated attempts at their behaviour, i.e. banning serial cheaters from the airline.

Anyway... Just a bit of Monday fun.

It's "The Prisoner Dilemma". If everyone follows the rules, everyone gains, slightly. If one person cheats, he gains big time. But other see that, then everyone cheats, and everyone loses.

JMN57 Sep 8, 2014 11:09 am


Originally Posted by lhgreengrd1 (Post 23482943)
Who gets to decide that, and what is the underlying basis upon which someone has been given that authority? Last I saw, Gaylord Perry was voted into the Hall of Fame, and Richard Sherman is regarded as one of the best players in the NFL.

You must not be a golfer.

thelostshark Sep 8, 2014 11:15 am


Originally Posted by Andrew Murray (Post 23487568)
Interesting that they would stop people. I would think in general good customer service would prevent GAs from embarrassing customers. Yes they're not following the rules but unless the GA say something no one knows and so the other passengers won't be upset and if you do say something the person who was embarrassed will be less likely to fly with that airline again.

I have seen people attempt to board before their zone quite a few times. The GAs I've seen politely inform the passenger that it's not yet their turn, and the passengers says something like "Oh, ok," and it's all over in a few seconds. Undoubtedly some people have made an honest mistake, and others not. But the GAs I've seen have handled it with professionalism such that it really isn't embarrassing for the pax. That makes sense to me.

That said, I really like the GA who threatened the gate check the carry-ons! tls

Seat 2A Sep 8, 2014 2:28 pm


Originally Posted by lhgreengrd1 (Post 23491172)
And yet, much of life as we know it here on planet earth could not exist without pond scum. Similarly, most meaningful breakthroughs of human accomplishment are achieved by those who are unwilling to follow the rules of convention in society.

I can't say I agree with your analogy here since most meaningful breakthroughs of human accomplishment tend to be altruistic in nature, benefitting many. Altruism would hardly describe the actions of those who willfully engage in boarding zone cheating since the only real beneficiaries of their willful dissent are themselves.

Flubber2012 Sep 8, 2014 6:00 pm


Originally Posted by lhgreengrd1 (Post 23491172)
And yet, much of life as we know it here on planet earth could not exist without pond scum. Similarly, most meaningful breakthroughs of human accomplishment are achieved by those who are unwilling to follow the rules of convention in society.

Could you give some concrete examples of sociopaths who have made great strides forward in science, literature, etc?

I think you are referring to revolutionary thinkers who thought outside convention like Copernicus, etc. I see a huge difference between a line jumper and someone who can conceptualize outside what is currently "known."


Originally Posted by Tchiowa (Post 23493491)
It's "The Prisoner Dilemma". If everyone follows the rules, everyone gains, slightly. If one person cheats, he gains big time. But other see that, then everyone cheats, and everyone loses.

I'm struggling to understand how one person winning big by defrauding the system benefits all of us.

lhgreengrd1 Sep 8, 2014 6:54 pm


Originally Posted by haveric (Post 23493213)
Is there a list of what other rules / laws don't you follow because, in your role as judge and jury, you've decided they are unreasonable? Would help out the rest of us to know which rules you choose to follow.

I've been known to drive ~5 MPH over the posted speed limit on the highway.

I have occasionally pulled the tags off of a mattress once I bought it.

I also wore white the other day - two days after Labor Day.

I realize that none of the other posters here do any of these things, because it would be against the rules, and it's unreasonable to summarily make a decision that certain rules are worthy of neglect.


Originally Posted by Flubber2012 (Post 23495773)
Could you give some concrete examples of sociopaths who have made great strides forward in science, literature, etc?

I think you are referring to revolutionary thinkers who thought outside convention like Copernicus, etc. I see a huge difference between a line jumper and someone who can conceptualize outside what is currently "known."

Steve Jobs.


Originally Posted by JMN57 (Post 23493650)
You must not be a golfer.

Correct. It's a silly, elitist game.


Originally Posted by Tchiowa (Post 23493491)
It's "The Prisoner Dilemma". If everyone follows the rules, everyone gains, slightly. If one person cheats, he gains big time. But other see that, then everyone cheats, and everyone loses.

I am well aware of the prisoner's dilemma. That's why I specifically stated that I prefer it when others observe the rules, allowing me to maximize my benefit were I to flout them. Conveniently, many folks will NOT break the rules, even as others do and gain advantage on those poor rule-observers.

BuildingMyBento Sep 8, 2014 8:40 pm

If I have a sizable carry-on and reckon that finding overhead space will be a pill, I'll be one of the first to board in my group.

Otherwise, I wait until the gate agent beckons me.

Either way, there's always a line to get into the back...

Amelorn Sep 8, 2014 9:04 pm


Originally Posted by LAXative (Post 23491387)
A fair system would be to have gates for self-scanners/boarders. Anyone boarding out of turn won't be allowed to board until the last passenger who boarded correctly.



Have you never flown in Asia (except Japan)?

I've flown ex-NRT, HKG, BKK, SIN, KUL, and DPS on TG, VS, SQ, KL, MH, CX, and NH.

The F/J/elite, and Y+ lines have been respected. Y is a scrum, I will admit.

Tchiowa Sep 8, 2014 9:35 pm


Originally Posted by Flubber2012 (Post 23495773)
C
I'm struggling to understand how one person winning big by defrauding the system benefits all of us.

It doesn't. That's the point of the prisoner's dilemma. One person who cheats and wins big helps himself only. But other people see it so they jump in a cheat too. And everyone loses eventually.

lhgreengrd1 Sep 8, 2014 9:46 pm


Originally Posted by Tchiowa (Post 23496618)
It doesn't. That's the point of the prisoner's dilemma. One person who cheats and wins big helps himself only. But other people see it so they jump in a cheat too. And everyone loses eventually.

Couple of points relative to the prisoner's dilemma as it plays out in the real world - it's cynical, but it's real:

1) Not everyone eventually breaks the rules, and those that never do are the biggest losers - i.e. the patsies.

2) So long as #1 holds, those that break the rules first are the biggest winners.

Flubber2012 Sep 9, 2014 3:19 am


Originally Posted by lhgreengrd1 (Post 23496001)


Steve Jobs.



I rather doubt that you knew him and neither did I but this seems like a reasonable example. I wonder how many line jumpers are starting huge companies like Apple and designing innovative products vs. those who are just dicks.

roberino Sep 9, 2014 5:31 am


Originally Posted by lhgreengrd1 (Post 23496654)
Couple of points relative to the prisoner's dilemma as it plays out in the real world - it's cynical, but it's real:

1) Not everyone eventually breaks the rules, and those that never do are the biggest losers - i.e. the patsies.

2) So long as #1 holds, those that break the rules first are the biggest winners.

It's not quite as simple as that though because those people you refer to as "patsies" respect the rules as long as they are not in a minority that suffers because of the rules. Identifying as one of those sufferers requires experience, i.e. the person may have been stung more than once with gate-check fees due to being at the end of a late boarding group. A sufferer is more likely to break the rules. Infrequent flyers are therefore unlikely to break the rules.

A small number of the sufferers will never break the rules (as you mentioned) because community cooperation means more to them than personal gain. Given the lack of penalty for cheating it is not likely that this is due to fear of consequences but probably a lack of desire to disadvantage the group as a whole.

There's a third group though, and that is pax who have checked their luggage already and only have small items of hand baggage. They are unlikely to become sufferers as there's no trigger for that, and therefore they're unlikely to become rule breakers, but they're not patsies either. This doesn't mean they wouldn't be one or the other if the trigger was there, but they're not exhibiting that behaviour in this circumstance.

mofolino Sep 9, 2014 8:04 am

Slightly OT:

I can speak for myself and I rather go onboard last than first.
I don't get it why should I stand and wait in que and than go onboard and wait for others to board, put their bags in overhead bins so I can see their bellies (hardly a gorgeous woman), feel their stress etc.
Ok I get it if you are in F or J but in Y I am the in last 10 going onboard.
I understand people traveling with RyanAir when there was no seat allocation, everybody wanted the perfect seat (for your information there is no such on RA, you have to pay for those better ones). I have my seat so why rush? Does this make me "rule breaker"?

Tchiowa Sep 9, 2014 8:41 am


Originally Posted by roberino (Post 23497793)
It's not quite as simple as that though because those people you refer to as "patsies" respect the rules as long as they are not in a minority that suffers because of the rules. Identifying as one of those sufferers requires experience, i.e. the person may have been stung more than once with gate-check fees due to being at the end of a late boarding group. A sufferer is more likely to break the rules. Infrequent flyers are therefore unlikely to break the rules.

A small number of the sufferers will never break the rules (as you mentioned) because community cooperation means more to them than personal gain. Given the lack of penalty for cheating it is not likely that this is due to fear of consequences but probably a lack of desire to disadvantage the group as a whole.

There's a third group though, and that is pax who have checked their luggage already and only have small items of hand baggage. They are unlikely to become sufferers as there's no trigger for that, and therefore they're unlikely to become rule breakers, but they're not patsies either. This doesn't mean they wouldn't be one or the other if the trigger was there, but they're not exhibiting that behaviour in this circumstance.

^ Agree. And let me take it a step further. Life is more than just waiting in line to board a plane. The success one might get by jumping the line is minor. But people who follow rules, cooperate with each other, make everything better for everyone are also usually the ones who succeed in life. For others, all that little cheating eventually adds up and costs dearly in the long run.

Being 70 years old and picking up a welfare check smug in the knowledge that I boarded early 30 years ago is not my definition of success.

lhgreengrd1 Sep 9, 2014 8:54 am


Originally Posted by Tchiowa (Post 23498631)
^ Agree. And let me take it a step further. Life is more than just waiting in line to board a plane. The success one might get by jumping the line is minor. But people who follow rules, cooperate with each other, make everything better for everyone are also usually the ones who succeed in life. For others, all that little cheating eventually adds up and costs dearly in the long run.

Being 70 years old and picking up a welfare check smug in the knowledge that I boarded early 30 years ago is not my definition of success.

OTOH, having time to travel at leisure, knowing I will not have status anymore because I retired at 45 and no longer get bazillions of FF miles from company-paid business travel, but rather I am using the miles I earned between 20 years ago and 3 years ago to fly on personal leisure only, usually for nearly free, IS mine. And BTW, the only reason I care about getting an overhead bin is that my camera gear is too valuable to stow as baggage. Fortunately, thus far, I've not actually needed to resort to cheating to get a bin for my camera gear. But I would not have a problem doing so if needed.


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