The Haggling Thread
 

I'm going to IST next month, and read that everything for sale is subject to haggling. Can anybody give tips on negotiating for the best prices without looking like the ugly American (or Canadian or general loathsome foreigner)?

I did a search for this topic using "haggling" and "bargaining" as keywords, but didn't find a thread like this.

Dress like you are poor. Make the seller give the first offer. Halve that. Meet midway.

Don't wear visibly flaming panties in IST, as they will double their first offer.:D

YMMV.

I could easily come out wearing a schmata (rag), but what kind of seller would believe a tourist is poor? Turkey, as I understand it, has quality cotton goods, including underwear. Holy moley, I need that!

Don't be afraid to leave (or pretend to) if the seller won't compromise enough.

The "walk away" is the best tactic

I read there are favorable exchange rates when changing your money at the Grand Bazaar. Can anybody confirm this? Also, do some sellers take Yankee dollars?

I want to buy a whole bunch-a evil eye thingies to give as souvenirs, and give everybody the evil eye.

Agree. When I lived in Hong Kong, I loved reading tourist guides because they'd note that in the markets, locals (or mainlanders) may be able to haggle down as much as half the original quoted price for something, whereas a westerner could expect to successfully bargain down 20-30%. What a bunch of malarkey! I (both there and anywhere else) always firmly make my first counteroffer half what I'm originally quoted and if they say no, I say that's as high as I'll go, and if they don't agree, I'll say thanks but I just can't do that much and walk away. Probably nine times out of ten, they run after within 30 seconds and agree to my price. Also - I find it's best to have a bit of that type of back and forth for a bit where they start to comedown in price and you politely stay firm, because if you walk away immediately, they may not be invested enough in the deal yet to care.

Another strategy - I'll keep very little local currency in my wallet and keep the rest in a pocket or separately in my bag, so I can actually pull out my wallet in negotiations and say "no, really. I just don't even have more than that with me so I just can't pay more, sorry" and that can help.

Have in mind a price you won't mind pay for an item. Sometimes if you offer a price that is just too low and walk away, the seller might actually not call you back. And when you do go back, you might not get a price anywhere near what the seller mentioned before. So when you walk away, make sure you really are willing to walk away.

Suggest a discounted price if you are buying more than one item.

Don't be afraid to point out flaws (scuffs, unevenness, discoloration), anything that might get the seller to lower the price.

Just some things that have worked for me.

The Haggling Thread
 

Have proper change

I would not exchange money at Grand Bazaar unless it is a bank. Offering $ is fine, but price wise you will do better with the Turkish lira.
With haggling I start at 30% and go up. The prices there are not the best/lowest, I would go and tour it, an do my shopping elsewhere.
Beware of the fake "branded" products. For non branded and souvenirs it is fine.
Don't forget to buy lokum to bring as a gift. My fave.

Haggling is a fine art and how you go about it should depend on the circumstances surrounding the deal. If I'm in a touristy area I'll start around 30% of their first offer and go up to no more than 50% - and then only if I really, really want that specific item. Typically, you will find the same items being sold by many merchants and even at 50% you're probably overpaying, compared to what a local would be charged.

However, if I'm at a small open market in some place frequented by locals and the first offer is reasonable, then I'll probably be willing to pay much more, maybe 75% or even full price. It is often the case that these merchants are operating on a much slimmer margin and the difference of even a dollar or less makes a huge difference to them.

The art of haggling is to get to a fair price as viewed by both seller and buyer; not to unnecessarily grind someone into the ground. (Not implying you are seeking to do this.)

And, as others have said, be willing to walk away. If you're like me, you probably already have too much crap in your life anyway. ;)

The notion that you should start by offering half is right in some places, but not in others. For starters, most vendors know this so-called rule.

I remember my son asking a vendor in the Silk Market in Beijing what a tie cost -- the vendor turned over the tie and on the name tag it read "US$250."

My kid offered US$1. Settled for US$5 and he still probably didn't come close to the local price.

I've had this epiphany also. I remember one trip years ago haggling with a street vendor to buy a toy for something like the equivalent of a dollar when he wanted two. Afterwards I thought to myself, was that really necessary.

My Turkish friends, even the wealthy ones, will grind to the bitter end, whether that might take hours or even stretch into another day, until they're satisfied that they're at rock bottom.

+1. My little "moment" came on the streets of Bangkok. On certain days, people line some streets near the Palace to sell wares and, in some cases, personal items. Basically they just setup a small table or lay down a blanket on the sidewalk. One girl was selling some family goods including an old cast bronze Buddha, for which she wanted 2,500 Baht (about $50 or $60 at the time); not at all cheap for something being sold on the street. I got that reduced to 2,000, saving myself a whole $10. Absolutely nothing to me but assuredly a lot to her and her family. At the time, I didn't realize how hard it is for a Thai person to sell such a statue so, for me, it was just a good bargain. When I found out the implications - that she and her family were probably very poor and quite desperate - I felt like absolute sh*t (and still do). I guess without regrets we'd never learn.

I know people like that too. Part ego and part insecurity (fear of being taken advantage of), I guess.

If they aren't making money on it, they won't sell it. I don't have regrets about haggling (except I'm never as good as I think I'll be) and never will do. They're in business, not charity.

If you give in too easily, they'll see the next foreigner as an easy mark, and increase the price by 10%. We have a duty to other tourists to haggle to the bitter end. It's not about ego, it's about ensuring our money isn't screwing up the economy as well. I've used the 'I'm not an American' feigned shock line when they tell me the opening offer on several occasions though, fairly successfully ;)

Worked for me few times. ^

Don't go in with a warlike mentality. "This thing--how much? No that's too much" doesn't work nearly as well as:

Walk around a bit, talk to the guy, ask him about his family, joke around with him, ohh by the way this looks pretty what is it?, chat for a while longer and take a look at the picture of his grandson in his wallet, can you give me a good price?, show him a picture of your grandson, ohh wow if I pay that I won't have any money left over for lunch!, make a joke about that idiot tourist nearby making a mess of things, how about this I'll pay you $x.

Rinse, wash, repeat. If you know any terms of endearment in the local language, use them ("chabibi, that just won't do"). If it's a touchy-feely culture, touch the guy on the arm a few times. Be willing to walk away as mentioned above.

Once you settle on a price give the guy a firm handshake and a smile. Not only will you get a better price (because you're showing some sensitivity to the guy, you're haggling in the way that locals in many cultures haggle, and he'll like you a lot more than the average tourist that lumbers by), but you'll also have a lot more fun.

It's supposed to be a dance, not a battle.

Exactly.

That said, if you start with a counter of half the original ask, and work your way up from there to "meet in the middle", you probably don't belong on the dance floor. Your seller will be very happy.

I'm Western, and it's really easy to put a guilt trip on myself about negotiating with people who appear less well off. But if it's a cultural norm to haggle that's what I'm doing. It's tough to believe whomever I'm negotiating with doesn't know this game better than I ever will.

A couple of things:

I'm female. Will this encourage the vendor to fix me up with his shy geeky son who's addicted to video games, or hit on me himself?

Do most sellers in Turkey and elsewhere know enough English to engage in a bargaining session?

What prices should I consider firm and not subject to negotiation? I can assume restaurant menu prices are firm, right?

It's nice getting to know the locals, but I'm not sure I would have the strength to engage them in a conversation over each trinket that catches my eye.

Stuff I want from Ist:

A dozen or so evil eye thingies in different sizes
Hamam towels
A set of hotel quality bathroom towels
A silver jewelry item or two, possibly with inlaid ceramic
100% cotton Turkish clothing
A carpet bag if they're not too expensive, and/or carpet accessories like eyeglass cases
A mosaic table lantern
A cool looking Oriental genie oil lamp if I can find one
Turkish delight candy, natch

I'm not interested in any big heavy rugs or antiquities. Looking to spend about $300-$400 total.

Good advice here so far.

For me, it boils down to:

1. Know what the item is worth to you going in to the negotiation, not what the local price would be. $30 vs $40 to you is not much of a difference, but it can be a huge difference to someone in a place like Thailand or China. Don't pay more than it's worth to you.

2. Don't ever give the impression that you're in love with an item. Mild, polite interest is where you're going for.

3. Don't be afraid to take a step back and pause negotiations to stall the momentum.

4. Walk away if the merchant won't meet the price you set in #1. The price he calls out to your back is often his best price given your price constraints.

5. Ignore all signs that the merchant is annoyed or selling under duress. They will only ever sell if they're making money. Everything else is an act.

6. Don't be an American. Literally. I was in Dubai and wanted to buy a dish dasha (the Arabic robe garment) and headdress. Went to a store with a friend who is American but born in Russia. The guy insisted that this poor quality dish dasha was a $200 item and wouldn't budge...until my friend started talking to him in Russian. Suddenly I was only paying $15. As my friend told me after we left, he knew I was American and that "Americans don't know what things cost...but Russians have a keen eye for value." :)

Yes and yes. Please be very aware of your surroundings and situations. What may seem to be an innocent invitation to "come in and look at all the wonderful things in my shop" can quickly turn into an unwanted and unsolicited sexual advance. It happened to me. Thankfully I was able to extricate myself from the situation before things got way out of hand. The impression that many Turkish men have is that all Western women are very loose and easy.

That being said, I love Turkey and have spent many weeks there and would go back in a heartbeat. Just be mindful of your circumstances.

Also to add, go around and see the prices other vendors offer

Most important is being able to walk away.

I have had vendors follow me down three blocks each time cutting the price in half.

I usually start at 10% of the asking price and start up

For me, the haggle is the fun part.

I haven't been to Turkey but I've played this game in other countries. Some advice which applies not only to haggling but to so many other aspects of international travel: Don't rush right in, but spend some time watching what other people are doing. This is particularly true if you can see how the locals handle it, and try to do the same. Or watch how a clumsy, loud, obnoxious tourist does it and do something different. ;)

In general I agree with BDA shorts about having a conversation, but if the vendor is a man, this may easily be misconstrued so be careful.

And another approach, if the price isn't coming down to your level, is to ask for another item: "That's too much for just a necklace but I'll pay that if you include this bracelet as well."

I could fake being a Canadian, and do a dead-on British accent, but speaking Russian is beyond my skill sets.

eBay has been very useful here. I got to know in advance what I want to shop for and the going prices, including shipping.

Actually, as a shameless cheapskate, I have some experience haggling at the local flea market. The walkaway method doesn't work here, but agreeing to buy several of anything usually does. Showing them you're low on money helps, and they'll agree to take what you've got left.

I've assumed this conversation is about cash only. What about using credit cards and haggling?

Ooh, my favorite trick when I want to buy multiples of something:

Do my little haggling dance with the vendor for one, maybe two. Buy them. Come back all the way at the end of your time in the market, chat with him a bit more, and say, "You know what, I'd like to buy X more of these. But I need you to give me a good price." Dance again.

As for credit cards--they're going to pay a charge to their bank for accepting a credit card, so that'll just get worked into the price. Besides, for the sort of stuff you're looking for you'd prefer a guy who doesn't take cards--only some slick store that caters to tourists would take cards, and of course that means higher prices. Whatever miles you can get won't be worth the higher price you're paying.

Don't make a beeline for the thing that you are interested in. Look at a few other things first, discarding them as options. Don't show you are really interested in something, ask the price of a couple of other things to get a gist for the way they do business (I really hate the 'whatever you want to pay' or 'good price, how many do you want' lines!) And decide what the item is worth to you (e.g. you can buy nice hamam towels this side of the Atlantic for $6 or $7 with no haggling)

Look at it this way, if you hadn't bought the item then it could have been sitting around all day and they'd have taken an even lower offer for it, or they may even have had to carry it home again.

Just the fact that they went home with cash on the hip probably made them happier then your conscience allows you to believe.

Ain't that the truth, but just because we have regrets it doesn't mean we've done wrong ;)

I have purchased some amazingly valuable things for pennies, and it don't bother me none. You heard of "caveat emptor"? It works both ways, the seller must beware, too. Nobody pitied me when I sold things too cheaply, and I did many times.

I plan to take about $500 with me to Turkey. This should cover 6 nights, I will keep the money in several places and never flash my wad.

This has turned out to be a very fun thread. ^

No doubt the girl was happy to get the money. I'm sure it helped the family survive for a bit and I probably still paid more than someone else would have. That being said, there was just no reason for me to haggle the price down. It was reasonable value at the original asking price and the difference in price was "in the noise" for me but highly significant for her.

There's a very important difference in buying something from a "professional merchant" and buying something from someone trying to scrape up a few bucks to survive. This was a poor Thai girl selling her family's Buddha on a sidewalk along with some random household goods; not a merchant selling something out of a shop. Huge difference.

As I later learned, Thai people do not sell Buddha's frivolously, even to the point of calling it a "lease" rather than a sale. This was an act of desperation and I fault myself for being unaware of the cultural implications.

As a practical matter, in more serious situations being "culturally unaware" can get you killed! :eek:

True. So long as we remember the lesson learned and, for good or ill, this is one epiphany that won't wear off!

According to a strict interpretation of Jewish ethics, it is wrong to take advantage of a seller's ignorance. According to Leviticus 25:14, " "If you sell something to your neighbor or buy something from your neighbor’s hand, you shall not wrong one another." Talmud interprets this to include taking advantage of a seller's ignorance or error (T. Baba Mezi'a 50a, ff). It also differentiates a layperson from a merchant.

Ya take one Jewish ethics class at Chabad.... ;)

I suspect you've never found yourself in such dire straits that would necessitate you selling your hair and front teeth! ;) [yay! movie/play/novel ref :)] And should fortune ever frown upon you to such a degree that you "depended upon the kindness of strangers" [another play/movie ref! :)], I hope they show you more kindness than I did to that girl.

When visiting Turkey, and other places, keep in mind that haggling is not confined to the markets and bazars. Whether you enter one of the many outlet stores (which you should, it's dirt cheap), or if you're in an upmarket store in a posh mall you should never take the price printed on the label as anything than a rough suggestion. I've never bought anything at "list" in Turkey, and I've been going for more than 30 times and have purchased everything from a pair of briefs over a designer label suit to a washing machine to a car!

Only difference is you don't counter-offer with 20-30% of what a bazar vendor asks for when you're in a real shop, but 20-30% below list is absolutely a fair offer. If the shop attendant can't help you, ask for the manager. Helps a lot if you speak Turkish, or have someone with you who does, it must be added.

Why do you spoil this thread by lecturing me about your fundamentalist religious ethics? I don't care what Baba Mezi's or Papa Mezi's opinion is. Go lecture Bernie Madoff about Jewish ethics.

Confirmed. They effectively charge about 0.5% or less in commission. Of course they take USD. What money changer in the world does not?

I disagree. Some of the best rates I've ever seen in the world were from money changers in the grand bazaar.

Yes, all bargaining should be done in Turkish lira. Once you have settled on a price, ask the vendor to hold the item for a few minutes while you go change money.

I meant do some of the sellers take Yankee dollars? I have shopped overseas many times using $$$ without having to exchange them.

If haggling, I really wouldn't. I think that would mean a 10-20% mark up on price immediately.

Sorry, I misread your statement.

Yes, some sellers to take USD. What I would do is bargain in Lira to get the best possible price. Once you arrive at a final price, ask them what rate they give for USD. If you are unhappy with their rate, tell them to hold on to the goods while you quickly go and convert at a money changer.

Not trying to lecture you and, actually, I'm an atheist; ethics are a separate matter.

Have fun on your trip and stay safe.

I agree with what most people posted. Living in China I've learned to bargain and bargain hard.

- Take lots of small bills with you so you have exact change. I usually put the majority in a separate pocket/pouch in my bag and just keep the bare minimum in my wallet so when I go to pay it doesn't look like I have tons of cash on me. Makes me feel like an a** if I bargain to the death then show them a wad of cash
- In bargaining countries, almost everything is up for negotiation. If you're not sure, you can always ask if they can do a little bit better or mention that the item is a little expensive. It'll be pretty obvious if the sticker price is going to hold
- Don't listen to hard and fast rules about 10% or 50%. As people mentioned, sometimes vendors start with outrageous prices. Decide what you want to pay before starting to negotiate and don't go above that. A good deal is a relative thing.
- A good way to find out bottom prices is to bargain very hard at the first stall you see that has the item you want. Walk away at a very low price and if they don't change their mind you know you have to increase the price slightly at the next place.
- Learn bargaining culture. Some countries it helps to be firm, some they prefer a more friendly style - ie in Thailand you're going to get a better deal if you're nice and smile, in China you can act offended and throw the calculator (not recommended but it does work)
- Volume always leads to price decreases. I usually find out what the cheapest price is for buying one, then negotiate for a larger volume
- Definitely don't admit to being American - that leads to an automatic price increase
- Don't get frustrated. It's all in good fun. Can't tell you how many times I've seen (American) tourists at the fake market here getting annoyed by the barganing so just agreeing to pay the first price. Let's face it, you're not going to be buying anything essential so if you're not having fun just walk away and try again later

It was China I learned that it could be fun. Until China, I had the guilt thing some people above have talked about. In China, it was just a battle - one I was always going to lose technically, but would still pay what I wanted for the items and so I could win too.

What I found hardest in China was going out from Beijing to the hinterlands, where they were not so used to tourists, asking the price of something and it starting below what I had already decided was my maximum price :eek: I found it really hard to haggle hard when I was already happy to pay the price at the opening offer :o

I negotiate deals for a living (sort of like haggling...).

Souvenir market haggling is more of an art than a science.
I sympathise with most of the tips offered above.
Some thoughts:
- There are no hard and fast rules about what percent to coutner with.
- Markets where there are multiple sellers selling the same thing, and where there are mostly local shoppers as opposed to a tourist-friendly bazaar, are by far the best. (i.e. avoid the Little India night market in Kuala Lumpuir, avoid buying anything in Tangiers Morocco, avoid buying things from stalls set up right near or in tourist attractions, and DEFINITELY avoid shops that your organised tour or tour guide takes you to, especially if there are no competitors around, etc..)
- If time is not an issue, you can never know too many competitors price points. Just about all souvenir-like products of interest to travelers are usually available from many sellers, usually in more than one location. I never buy from the first or second seller. At a minimum I buy from a third, and only if I have a rough idea of what a product should cost. I usually like to get an idea of value for the same product from multiple markets locations ( some entire markets can have a group mindset of high markups)
- Depending on the circumstances, I use different approaches - either hard grinding, (with a bit of theatrics/white lies such as what someone else offered for the same product elsewhere - but only if I'm sure of competitor prices) or the friendly approach if I feel like the seller is starting with a very reasonable price.
- Always bargain in the local currency. This goes without saying.
- Consider pretending like you're from a non-North American/non-European country - and definitely not from the USA. I.E. If you're white, pretend you're from an east european country (though not Russia as a lot of sellers know Russian in places like Sinai, Israel, south east Turkey, Italy, Greece, Harbin in China, etc..)
- A good rule of thumb is to know the approximate value of some commodity/fungible souvenirs - so you can compare how high each seller's opening price for the same commodity souvenir is. This will give you an idea of their general pricing approach. I.E. A small commodity souvenir fridge magnet should cost between 0.5 and 1.5 USD, depending on the locale.
- If you feel very confident based on knowing prices that one seller is giving you extremely reasonable opening prices, tell them you realize they are beign reasonable and that you appreciate it and trust them. Establish rapport and buy a lot of products from that seller (but you have to be SURE he 's not gouging). I once had such a seller in Amman, Jordan. Having looked around before, I KNEW that this guy was giving me really really good prices. I bought maybe two dozen things from him. At one point, after agreeing to a price on a product and paying him for it, he gave me back an amount with a smile saying I had overpaid on that last item. It was confirmed to me that he wasn't gouging me because later he told me I had to leave as the shop was closing down for the night - even though I was about to buy more things.
- There are tons of ways to establish rapport with someone who you KNOW is giving yougood opening prices - knowing a few words in the person's language is a good way (like "yalla Khabibi" in Arabic).
- Looking unique things up on Ebay, particularly from sellers located in that region, is a good trick for higher prices items.
- Some countries have fixed price stalls/stores for souvenies - use that price knowledge when bargaining for objects that are hard to assess.
- Avoid carpets and other opaque things whose quality/value is extremely difficult to assess for you. Those are the ones with the higher margins for sellers - as they can insist on huge markups (i.e. 1000% or more) and often enough get a tourist to agree to that price. They know you can't assess true value.
- In Morocco where sellers are EXTREMELY aggressive/persistent, the only line that worked for me to instantly get rid of a persisten seller (I was a man shopping on my own)was to say, "My wife is not with me right now, I can't buy anythign without her - but I would like to get an idea of your price for this". A lot of male sellers instantly sympathised with that - as it's common in Morocco (and likely other Maghreb countries) for husbands not to buy anything without a wife's approval.

- About feeling guilty. I too had that "moment" where I started to question why I grind sellers so much. I now pay close attention to who is a professional seller or an employee of a stall owner, and who is just someone on their own peddling household things. My own father had to sell household things on the streets for a few months when I was younger and he had to sell a family heirloom to a pawnbroker.
I still grind professional sellers though, and very occasionally feel some guilt when the amounts haglled over are low (a dollar or so).
I had a couple situations where I was essentially taking advanatge of a seller's ignorance. One in India stands out. (It's complicated to fully explain, it involves someone who didn't fully understand English and mistakenly agreed to a price below-cost, but then did not dare speak up to me and my friend to get his fair cost because we were foreigners and my friend was yelling about it.)
One of the only episodes about which I feel really guilty is in Nepal. I saw a sadhu couple ask a tourist couple for 10 rupees (about 10 US cents) to allow them to take a photo with them. When I approached to get my photo taken with the sadhu couple, they asked me for 20 rupees (about 20 US cents). I didn't do the conversion right in my mind and I thought at the time that they were asking me for 2 USD instead of 1 USD. I made a big deal about the other couple having paid less. They agreed to 10 rupees. Then when time came to pay, they asked for 20 rupees again gesturing that they needed to eat. Thinking that they were not following through on their promise (which they weren't) and thinking it was 2 USD versus 1 USD (rather than 20 cents versus 10 cents), I made a scandal about only agreeing to pay 10 rupees, in the presence of other foreigners. I ended up paying 15 rupees, and only later after I stormed away did I realise that I was yelling at dirt-poor sadhus (i.e. people who took a vow of poverty) in front of foreigners over literally one dime when they were gesturing that they needed to eat!

When I grind too much, and the seller starts complaining earnestly (you can sometimes see it in their eyes) about the cost of their rent being high, I usually stop grinding and just accept their last price - assuming it's reasonable.

I try not to waste sellers' time too much if I will not buy, i.e. I dont enter negotiations if I have no intention of buying.

BTW, I appreciate the ethics lesson from uszkanni - it's interesting.