Would you say something?
 

Over breakfast yesterday I was sitting in the lounge of a hotel in Germany and overhead a very loud couple discussing the French gunman/terrorist. The jist of the long, ignorant conversation was "who cares, he only targeted jews". I was pretty appalled but figured they were elderly and it just wasn't worth the effort to say anything to them.

Tonight, in the same lounge, a group of Brits in their early 20's were drinking heavily, toasting Hitler's birthday and "his goals". Just my luck to check in during anti semite week :D

Anyway, my question is if you were in a similar situation to either of the above, would you say anything?

I'm a jew but I'm about as secular as you can get. There's absolutely no way the remarks were directed at me. Would you you have done?

I probably wouldn't - free speech and all that. They didn't seem to be planning to hurt anyone themselves so by my book they can hold whatever screwy religious / political views etc. even if they are polar to my own. I'd rather occassionally listen to things I consider offensive / tripe, than to live in a society where people are not free to express themselves.

Hmm... Isn't that illegal in Germany? Perhaps you could have made a discrete exit from the lounge and complained about the hate speech to the duty manager.

i live in the DC area. the number of derogatory comments about blacks, and ugly nicknames about them in redneck and white trash(derogatory terms) bars is considerable. if were you, i would not attempt to straighten those people out.

most conservatives in this area do not speak kindly of PUSA, and refer to him as "that [edited by moderator]" don't worry about germany and england, worry about washington dc.

moderator, you can pull this if it is too offensive.

I wouldn't have said anything. You weren't going to change their mind, so why spend any effort trying to. Ignore, and feel good about where you stand in this world.

I am Jewish also. Probably I would have kept quiet. Probably I would have also cursed myself for keeping quiet.

I wouldn't say anything. They are entitled to their opinion, and it's none of anyone else's business. There are racist, sexist, and homophobic people all over the place, and you can't go around arguing with all of them.

In the US, this type of speech is covered under the first amendment. I believe the EU has similar rights under the European Convention on Human Rights.

As bad as things are Stateside, I'm hearing many liberals not speaking too kindly of PUSA as well.

There is a big difference between making comments about a particular individual and making comments about an entire race of people.

I would have been tempted to say something but probably would have restrained myself. The elderly couple are likely too set in their ways and the young guys sound scary. I wouldn't want to be in the same room with anyone toasting "Hitler's goals" let alone converse with them.

Silence implies agreement. In a pulblic place everyone has the right to have quiet conversation but not loud racist parties. I would have spoken up, and have done so in public places.

I would have said something. Somethings are worth fighting for. Exposing ignorance and hate is one of them. Then again, I like to battle with people.

Silence when you're faced with a group of boisterous drunks implies that you don't want to get hurt by beligerent drunks. I agree that the lounge should be a place that everyone can enjoy, but I think you're better off getting the management to deal with a hateful mob.

I mind my own business. Im posting this from a Bistro and I have earplug earbuds in listening to Sirius radio. Im too busy to care what other barflies say or think and I can't fight everyone. Nor do I want to.
Life can be full of conflict or peace. The decision is yours.

I suspect in the case of the older couple, I would have said "excuse me, but I found your comments to be very offensive." Then, I would have left.
In the case of the inebriated younger ones, I would have simply left without saying anything.

Must be a damn long party since Hitler's birthday is still four weeks out (20.04.).
I guess you've got something wrong with the celebration because being a little over-sensitive. Young Brits celebrating somebodys goals might sound strange to US-Americans with no ties to football. The day you are refering to has been a regular day for the UK Premier League with high class matches (eg ManCity-Chelsea).

Always easy to think of a witty remark later, but it would have been amusing had you said "No, no---in fact he was actually targeting senile elderly citizens. Be careful my dears.

So which football club or player is called Hitler?

Celebrating "somebody's goals" doesn't sound strange at all. Celebrating "Hitler's goals" is the alarming part.

I would have definitely said something to the couple discussing the French gunman/terrorist. Supporting terrorist's or justifying their actions is one thing I do not put up with. I don't care what the consequences would be.

OP did not mention a celebration of "Hitler's goals" but "toasting Hitler's birthday" and "his goals". Since even hardcore German Neonazis wouldn't bother to celebrate that four weeks ahead this seems to be a clear case of either very bad British education or getting someting wrong with the name. My vote goes to the latter.

This would be me as well, at least in the first case.

Not sure about the second... could be that they were talking about a friend... and not Adolph Hitler.

I probably wouldn't say anything. With the young people, I would take comfort in the fact that they are too stupid to even know when Hitler's birthday is.

what goal exactly? I guess they rather speak German ? :)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion

ah no,not really, just wait long enough until someone decides that they want a conflict with YOU ,then we will see :)

I would rather say that we can choose to bury our heads in the sand and not complain about the world we live in, or speak up

as Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" , change cant come out of peace I am afraid (and I am atheist so....)

That's not the topic of this tread.
Of course, if someone is in your face and you have to defend yourself, then you may have to do so, and fight as best you can, keeping in mind that there is a difference between self defense and assault and battery. If you are the perpetrator, you will perhaps be engaged in some very long legal ramifications.

As to the thread topic, I personally ignore conversation that I am not directly a part of while in public places. And to THIS point, life can be full of conflict or peace. And thus the choice is yours.

Like I said and to reiterate, attitudes like this can't be tolerated.

Life will be very full of peace until these same people making these statements support attitudes/policies/wars that affect YOU , then there will be no peace and it will also be VERY late for speaking up.

Once you bury your head in the same is indeed very full of peace.

The choice to bury the head in the sand is indeed personal (comfortable and also convenient.....unless of course you are the one that just went down)

ps. it seems you misunderstood what I meant by "a conflict with YOU", by "You" I dont mean you personally, I am simply saying that this type of myopic statements "who cares they were jews" can easily be replaced by "who cares they were americans" or "they were christians" or etc etc etc. thats what I meant by "you" , I didnt mean a 'personal' conflict, I meant the ones that eventually lead to genocide/wars/terrorism etc

if someone says something that offends me personally, I will probably say something, if they want to have private conversations.....they can have it at their own place if they desire privacy and no interference

They can and should be tolerated. People have to be free to be racists if they so choose. If they aren't it won't be long before one isn't free to be a Christian (some think Christians are bigots) or a Muslim (some think all Muslims are terrorists), or anything else that one could find offense with.

I find the attitude as distasteful as you but the fact is they were just conversations at a table and no one was being physically threatened. And if someone is insane enough to support attitudes/policies/wars that would endanger Jewish people then there's no way a sentence or two from a complete stranger in a restaurant would do anything to change their mind.

The mature here are able to look at the situation and weigh whether or not saying anything would make a difference. That's not burying your head in the sand. It's just being smart.

I did like the idea about mentioning Hitler targeting the elderly to the older couple as one is walking out because it's possible it would provoke thought. Most likely though it would just cause them to roll their eyes and curse the rude person who was eavesdropping on their conversation.

by 'not tolerated' I dont mean forcefully suppressed

I mean confronted with reason and not dutifully accepted

if being quiet about "who cares they are just targetting jews" is "smart" , I will have to be stupid (noone is being physically threatened but well, its just 'jews' so if it happens tomorrow ....its not a big deal either.....right? its condoned by these two and perhaps overheard by more who may even agree)

I really could care less about someone rolling their eyes at me, if they dont want their conversation to be heard they can do so in a private place (specially after suggesting a homicide is irrelevant to them as it is not of their ethnicity/imaginary friend club)

I dont know for sure if a random sentence from a stranger in a restaurant will change their minds or not, you dont know that either.

I actually find it interesting, alarming and offensive that being quiet about a statement like this involving homicides is being labeled as 'smart', it may be convenient and safe but smart?????

and just in case, I am not jew, I am atheist and a latino aka brown.

**shutting up now** :)

When I said "smart" I was mainly thinking of myself (a small, female, solo traveler) who will be travelling in Germany later this year. No way I would approach a group af drunk Neo-nazis to give them a piece of my mind. With regards to the elderly couple, like I said I would be tempted, but it would depend on my reading of the situation. In my experience, saying something won't change a d-mn thing.

Ah, now I see. You just haven't personally interacted with people like this before. If you had, you'd be familiar with the utter futility of "confronting [them] with reason."

I agree with the 'Let them speak openly and freely.' crowd. Why? Because then I know whom to watch and to make sure I never turn my figurative back to them. It is the "smart" ones who only discuss such things in private/secret that concern me. You know, the ones who will [crocodile] smile to your face and then cut off your head when you turn your back.

Oh, and I would follow the axiom "one must choose one's battles" when trying to decide if I should say something to them or not.

And finally, with regards to private speech in a public space - I am no lawyer and this is not a legal argument, but if one has to "work at it" to hear a conversation then I would consider that eavesdropping but if the conversation can clearly be heard by the casual bystander then not so private anymore.

Professional and courteous behavior in public places is a sign of intelligence and courtesy to your fellow travelers.
Should one decide to discuss controversial topics, then they have to deal with the possibility of someone overhearing and giving his/her opinions to the conversation at hand.

Words are only words. Political correctness for the sake of such may be your thing, but it is not worth fighting over. If because you intervened the discussion happened to escalate to harsh language between you, chances of physical violence can arise. Then you have a whole new ugly world of troubles to deal with, where you would potentially be viewed by the courts as the perpetrator. Bad news all round. Unless you enjoy jail cells and court rooms.

I tend to focus on other positive things in my life. I tend to mind my own business. My earbuds are my best friend in such circumstances.

While it's sometimes difficult to ignore morons mouthing off, I see no point in butting in. What on earth would be expected outcome ?

Hint: nothing good :(

I am of the opinion that trying to reason with idiots, makes you an idiot.

So I avoid it.

I beg to differ....That trait has nothing to do with intelligence, ( for I have seen intelligent persons mouthing off in public), rather is a direct reflrction of how one was brought up at home and schools .

Except they succeed in bringing you down to their own levels ! :D

So all the Bush haters were anti-white right?

And it's POTUS not PUSA. Pet peeve.

I agree.
It's simply not worth the effort. I've got more productive and positive things to do in my life than getting into fights with total strangers.

Intelligence does not necessarily mean having high education or a formal education level. I've dealt with many individuals whom are "highly educated" that have very dismal "knowledge" of how to present themselves in public.

The definition of Intelligence also includes understanding, self-awareness, communication, and reasoning. I've met many individuals that display none of these traits, yet will tell you that they are highly educated. There is a difference between definitions. ;)

I would. I'm a descendant of Holocaust survivors and my Grandmother, an Auschwitz survivor always told me that when people began to forget, things could happen again. I'd have stood up and confronted them even if it meant getting my head kicked in.