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Originally Posted by WHBM
(Post 20040098)
Well a quick visit up into the attic, to stow the Christmas decorations, allowed a short diversion to where I have an August 1980 one :), where I see the AC shuttle (was it called Rapidair at this stage ?) was still in D8S hands on weekdays. These were all-Y aircraft, along with the AC DC9 fleet used on all the domestic services I can see there, whereas the L1011s, every 727 flight I checked, and those DC9s used to major US destinations like New York, had first class. Presumably there was a sub-fleet of DC9s with different seating.
Canada has always been a distinctly poor market for first class; even back in the 1960s the small number of BOAC 707s which were fitted out as economy-only were used principally to Toronto, along with some charters. 1) In an all Y configuration, how many coach seats did the Air Canada DC-8-61 aircraft which were operated on the YYZ-YUL shuttle service (or elsewhere such as to/from certain Caribbean and European destinations) have? 2) I believe that Air Canada converted approximately six (6) of their DC-8-63s to DC-8-73s with this re-engining being accomplished in-house by their engineering dept. Were these Super 73s ever used in passenger operations by AC or were they used strictly for cargo only? Also, I think that all of Air Canada's DC-9-10 aircraft were configured with an all Y class seating arrangement (no F) while AC's DC-9-30 aircraft were initially configured with a two class seating arrangement (F/Y) but were then converted to all Y seating later on..... |
Originally Posted by jlemon
(Post 20043828)
2) I believe that Air Canada converted approximately six (6) of their DC-8-63s to DC-8-73s with this re-engining being accomplished in-house by their engineering dept. Were these Super 73s ever used in passenger operations by AC or were they used strictly for cargo only?
46033/431 63 8/80 CF-TIK 63AF 2/84 73AF 46076/451 63 12/80 CF-TIO 63AF 10/84 73AF 46100/502 63 6/82 CF-TIP 63AF 11/83 73AF 46123/508 63 4/81 CF-TIQ 63AF 8/84 73AF 46124/511 63 8/81 CF-TIR 63AF 4/84 73AF 46125/515 63 4/82 CF-TIS 63AF 6/84 73AF ( http://www.dc-8jet.com/0-dc-8-71-73-...0w%20regns.htm ) |
Originally Posted by jlemon
(Post 20043828)
Also, I think that all of Air Canada's DC-9-10 aircraft were configured with an all Y class seating arrangement (no F) while AC's DC-9-30 aircraft were initially configured with a two class seating arrangement (F/Y) but were then converted to all Y seating later on.....
In one of those coincidences, the original six smaller aircraft were sold on to Texas International, and later moved on to Continental, whereas the later batch had been purchased FROM Continental ! |
Thanks to Wally Bird and WHBM for their above respective answers!
BTW, I saw an Air Canada Cargo DC-8-73 land at ANC many years ago. Perhaps ANC was a technical stop for AC between Canada and Asia with the Super 73 back in the day? I've also done a bit of research with regard to the all coach seating configuration of the DC-8-61. Depending on the source, it appears the D8S could be configured with a maximum of 259 or 269 seats in a "high density" all Y arrangement. However, it also appears to me these numbers refer to dedicated charter aircraft that were operated in nonscheduled operations by other air carriers and thus may not be representative of the Air Canada Super DC-8s which were operated in an all Y seating configuration on the Toronto (YYZ)-Montreal (YUL) Rapidair hourly shuttle service. So for the sake of discussion, let's assume AC's DC-8-61 aircraft were configured with approximately 250 coach seats. With fourteen (14) flights operated every weekday from YYZ to YUL, that's 3500 seats. Of course, on a roundtrip basis, this means that Air Canada was offering 7000 seats every weekday between YYZ and YUL. And this approximate total does not count the number of seats offered on the AC B747-100 flight that operated every weekday between YYZ and YUL in addition to the Super DC-8 Rapidair services! Any way you slice it, that's quite a few seats. Of course, Air Canada was far and away the dominant carrier on the route (and still is). And it also appears to me this was the only instance anywhere in the world of a scheduled hourly shuttle service between two cities being operated with stretched Super DC-8 aircraft (although I could be wrong)...... |
For What It's Worth Dept: Back in January of 1976, I saw an Air Canada DC-8-61 parked at the terminal in Grand Junction, Colorado. I'd just flown in on a Frontier 737. Seems Air Canada used its big birds for the occasional ski charter as well. During the seventies Eagle/Vail had not yet been developed for jets, so GJT saw a lot of business from airlines delivering skiers headed for the slopes of Aspen and Telluride and maybe even Powderhorn up on Grand Mesa!
A couple of months ago jlemon presented an excellent post detailing all of United's special weekend ski flights into airports like GJT. The DC-8 was commonly used by UA for these flights. |
Originally Posted by WHBM
(Post 19948494)
We're all having a Christmas break, I see ….. :)
New Year’s Eve, another year on from the old times we write about here. I’ve been up in the attic (US - Loft ? Roofspace ?) sorting things out, and up there are some classic old timetables, among them a good set from summer 1939, the final pre-war year for Europe. At this time many services were very different between summer (lots) and winter (not a lot), so having the right season’s schedules is significant. Lets go back 73 years and have some questions from another era. I’ll try and dig across continents to give everyone a chance. 1) By summer 1939 there are at least four separate timetable guides for air services across the whole of Europe, each supposedly showing all air services (it is therefore interesting to identify all the differences/omissions between them !). Three of these were published in the UK, and a fourth in Germany, which had an extraordinary style of representation. I have them all. Can you name them ? What was so strange about the German timetable ? 2) There was a scheduled service BETWEEN two London airports ! Which airports, airline, aircraft ? How did the service get its name, one which was very familiar to Londoners ? 3) There is a once-daily service between London and Aberdeen. Which is the airline ? 4) There are three separate air services between Europe and Bangkok (which during 1939 changed its country’s name from Siam to Thailand). This was a huge run for 1939. Can we name the three carriers and their aircraft types ? 5) In summer 1939 there are three TWA flights a day between New York and Los Angeles. Aircraft in use are known as the Skyclub and the Skysleeper. Which actual aircraft types are these ? 6) Staying with TWA’s transcontinental flights, the fastest westbound flight stopped at three places along the way. What were these points ? 7) Meanwhile, there are two competitors on this route as well. Who are the three airlines ? Their fastest flights of the day leave at 5.10, 5.30 and 5.45 pm, and all get to LA at breakfast time. Who was the fastest ? And these were the days of giving names to individual flights. What were the names of the three flights ? 8) Specially for our Alaska agent, who was operating from Juneau to Fairbanks, and then branching on from there, one route to Nome and the other to Bethel ? 9) South African Airways was operating from Johannesburg to Durban and Cape Town; what aircraft type was their principal one in 1939 ? 10) Here’s a real challenge. In the seas approaching south-west England is Lundy Island, about 3 miles long and about 10miles offshore, home then to just a couple of farmers and summer day trippers. But there was a twice-daily air service from the mainland town of Barnstaple’s airfield (nowadays an RAF SAR helicopter base), landing on a bit of grass there. Can you identify the 1939 airline, and (ultimate trivia) its two aircraft ? So with that in mind, perhaps WHBM might have time to answer several of the above questions, most of which I do not believe ever received a response.... Meantime, hope all is well with everyone.....and I shall begin preparing a new set of quiz items which I'll then submit when they are ready. :cool: |
5) In summer 1939 there are three TWA flights a day between New York and Los Angeles. Aircraft in use are known as the Skyclub and the Skysleeper. Which actual aircraft types are these ? 6) Staying with TWA’s transcontinental flights, the fastest westbound flight stopped at three places along the way. What were these points? In 1939 I think the DC-3 was still doing the heavy lifting on most of the mainline routes for TWA and other airlines, but since the question asks "what actual aircraft type(s)", I'd have to guess maybe the other was a DC-4 as I think the Connies didn't show up until the 40s. Maybe it was a Boeing Stratocruiser, but strictly a shot in the dark there. Anyway, DC-3 for sure. As to cities served along the NYC-LA route, Chicago and Kansas City were big time centers of operation for TWA, but west of Kansas City... well, Amarillo and Albuquerque come to mind, maybe even Phoenix though I don't think the DC-3 had the range for KC-PHX which I flew just the other day aboard a Southwest 737-800. So I'll go with Albuquerque. That means in order Chicago, Kansas City and Albuquerque. |
Good Sunday Morning All!
First, the obligatory weather commentary..... We have been experiencing unseasonably warm, spring-like conditions this past week here in south Louisiana.....in fact, the Japanese magnolia trees are already in bloom with their distinctive purple and white blossoms. We've also experienced dry conditions with little or no precip which has allowed us to recover from the floods that some local areas experienced just a few weeks ago. However, I have the feeling that Old Man Winter is not quite done with us yet and that the firewood I've been cutting with my trusty Stihl chainsaw will come in handy in the not so distant future..... And now back to the quiz..... The following items all have a time line of the fall of 1994..... 1) This airline flew nonstop several times a week between Denver (DEN) and Los Cabos (SJD) in Mexico. Identify the air carrier and the equipment operated on the route. ANSWERED 2) At the same time, two airlines were operating daily nonstop flights between Phoenix (PHX) and Los Cabos (SJD). Name both carriers and the respective aircraft types they operated on the route. ANSWERED 3) Two airlines were competing on the Columbus (CMH)-Washington, DC (DCA) route at this time. Both offered nonstop flights. Identify both as well as the jet aircraft types they operated on the route. ANSWERED 4) Four airlines were offering flights from Baltimore (BWI) to New Orleans (MSY). Three of the carriers flew direct, no change of plane service while the fourth airline operated the only nonstop flights. Name all four carriers and the equipment they operated on the route. 5) This airline was operating nonstop service between Miami (MIA) and Aguadilla, Puerto Rico (BQN). Identify the carrier and the aircraft flown. 6) Three airlines were flying nonstop between Miami (MIA) and Montego Bay, Jamaica (MBJ). One carrier was Air Jamaica (JM), of course, which operated two different aircraft types on the route. Identify both aircraft types flown by JM MIA-MBJ and also name the other two airlines as well as the equipment they flew on the route. 7) Two airlines were competing between Miami (MIA) and Merida, Mexico (MID) at this time. One carrier offered daily nonstop as well as daily onestop, direct service while the other airline operated a daily onestop direct flight. Identify both carriers and the respective equipment they flew on the route. 8) This airline was offering the only service from New York City (LGA) to Huntsville (HSV) at this time with a onestop, direct flight. Identify the air carrier, the aircraft type and for bonus points the intermediate stop. 9) This airline was operating the only service from Los Angeles (LAX) to Kona, Hawaii (KOA) at this time with a onestop, direct flight. Name the carrier, the equipment flown on the route and for more bonus points the intermediate stop. ANSWERED 10) This airline was flying the only service between Resolute (YRB) in far northern Canada (Resolute is located about 400 miles from the North Pole) and Montreal (YUL). The flight operated twice a week, made two (2) intermediate stops and covered a distance of 2123 miles between YRB and YUL. Identify the airline, the equipment flown and for even more bonus points the two intermediate stops. ANSWERED |
Originally Posted by jlemon
(Post 20133155)
10) This airline was flying the only service between Resolute (YRB) in far northern Canada (Resolute is located about 400 miles from the North Pole) and Montreal (YUL). The flight operated twice a week, made two (2) intermediate stops and covered a distance of 2123 miles between YRB and YUL. Identify the airline, the equipment flown and for even more bonus points the two intermediate stops.
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Greetings and felicitations from sunny but chilly Havre, Montana. I've alighted from my bedroom aboard the eastbound Empire Builder and now await a coach seat aboard the westbound Empire Builder back to Spokane. So, while cooling my heels here in a local saloon, I'll take advantage of the Wi-Fi connection to have a go at jlemon's latest collection of questions.
Originally Posted by jlemon
(Post 20133155)
1) This airline flew nonstop several times a week between Denver (DEN) and Los Cabos (SJD) in Mexico. Identify the air carrier and the equipment operated on the route.
I reckon this was Mexicana, operated with a 727-264 9) This airline was operating the only service from Los Angeles (LAX) to Kona, Hawaii (KOA) at this time with a onestop, direct flight. Name the carrier, the equipment flown on the route and for more bonus points the intermediate stop. I've flown United DC-10s into KOA from HNL, albeit back in 1992. Still, let's stick with HNL and call it a DC-10 LAX-HNL-KOA. If it wasn't HNL then I'd think OGG would have been a good possibility as well.... |
Originally Posted by jlemon
(Post 20124194)
All quiet on the Old Timer's front these days, I see.... So with that in mind, perhaps WHBM might have time to answer .....
I think our colleague cs57 was first in with the three TWA stops of 1939 between New York and LA; it's surprising nowadays to think that DC3s were the regular aircraft on New York to Chicago nonstops, for all operators. And S2A was close with suggesting the Boeing Stratocruiser, as those came along for TWA the following year and took over several of these runs. I've time at the moment for just a couple of my follow-ups 1) By summer 1939 there are at least four separate timetable guides for air services across the whole of Europe, each supposedly showing all air services (it is therefore interesting to identify all the differences/omissions between them !). Three of these were published in the UK, and a fourth in Germany, which had an extraordinary style of representation. I have them all. Can you name them ? What was so strange about the German timetable ? The three UK publishers were Cooks, Bradshaw and ABC. Each of these were into train timetables in various forms, and the air services formed a natural extension. ABC were best for oddball UK services (of which there were quite a few), and ones connecting to Britain, Bradshaw tried to do everything in the least amount of paper space, though you eventually get the hang of it, while Cooks edited them quite well. The fourth was the pre-war Lufthansa timetable, which actually did all services in every European country. It wasn't a "timetable" in the conventional sense, but printed the whole lot on a single huge folded sheet stylised map. Here's a small part of it : http://www.timetableimages.com/ttima...9/dlh39-10.jpg 2) There was a scheduled service BETWEEN two London airports ! Which airports, airline, aircraft ? How did the service get its name, one which was very familiar to Londoners ? This was the Inner Circle Air Line, which wasn't a circle but just operated between London's Croydon and Heston airfields with DH84 Dragons. Miniliq got this one upthread. The name was familiar because in those times that was the name of what is now the Circle Line on the London Underground - there were Middle and Outer Circle's in those days as well, now long gone. Air Dispatch (sometimes known as Commercial Air Hire) was an independent operator of anything flying, based at London's Croydon airport, owned by Mrs Victor Bruce, one of the astounding aviatrix's of the time. Born in the 19th century, and having already got records for racing cars and speedboats, around 1930 she bought a plane (a Blackburn), THEN did her first flying lessons, and THEN promptly set off round the world in it and became the first woman to achieve this. Hops between Croydon and Heston (most business was Sunday afternoon first-flight joyriders who then went back on the London bus) were nothing after this. I see on Wikipedia that when she was aged 80 she refreshed her flying skills after a long interval, and then looped-the-loop in a De Havilland Chipmunk. 3) There is a once-daily service between London and Aberdeen. Which is the airline ? This was North Eastern Airways, a little-known but well developed independent operation, inevitably with DH89 Dragon Rapides, stopping at Newcastle and Edinburgh. 4) There are three separate air services between Europe and Bangkok (which during 1939 changed its country’s name from Siam to Thailand). This was a huge run for 1939. Can we name the three carriers and their aircraft types ? The big one was Imperial Airways, operating on most days with their Shorts Empire flying boats, heading through India to Singapore and Australia. Bangkok was a connecting point for Imperial landplanes to Hong Kong. Alongside them were KLM, using DC3s which operated from Amsterdam through some of the same stops and were principally making for Indonesia, though they did carry a significant number of connecting British passengers - just like KLM nowadays ! Third were Air France, Marseille (not Paris) to Saigon in French Indo-China with Dewoitine 338s - and if you know what those are without looking them up, then we should share a drink some evening ! |
Originally Posted by Wally Bird
(Post 20134084)
First Air 727-100 combi, Iqaluit and Kuujjuaq?
And indeed, First Air (7F) was serving Resolute at this time with a Boeing 727 Combi! However, the First Air northbound sched was a bit different..... 7F 862: Ottawa (YOW)-Iqaluit (YFB)-Nanisivik (YSR)-Resolute (YRB) Equip: 72M Op: Tuesdays only The airline operating from Montreal to Resolute was actually CP Air with Boeing 737-200 Combi service. Here's the northbound sched from the OAG..... CP 404: Montreal (YUL)-Iqaluit (YFB)-Nanisivik (YSR)-Resolute (YRB) Equip: 73M Op: Tuesdays & Thursdays only Prior to CP Air, Nordair (ND) had flown the route with a 73M..... |
Originally Posted by Seat 2A
(Post 20135019)
Greetings and felicitations from sunny but chilly Havre, Montana. I've alighted from my bedroom aboard the eastbound Empire Builder and now await a coach seat aboard the westbound Empire Builder back to Spokane. So, while cooling my heels here in a local saloon, I'll take advantage of the Wi-Fi connection to have a go at jlemon's latest collection of questions.
1) Mexicana operated the following schedules..... MX 918: MEX-PVR-SJD-DEN Equip: 72S Op: Thursdays & Saturdays only MX 919: DEN-SJD-PVR-MEX Equip: 72S Op: Thursdays & Saturdays only 9) United operated the following westbound schedule.... UA 199: IAD-DEN-LAX-HNL-KOA Equip: DC-10 Op: Daily The return flight, UA 192, operated daily KOA-HNL-LAX. And according to the OAG, UA did offer seats for sale between HNL and KOA. BTW, Aloha (AQ) was operating B737-200, B737-300 and B737-400 equipment between HNL and KOA at this time while Hawaiian (HA) was operating the DC-9-30 on all of its flights on this route........ |
Originally Posted by WHBM
(Post 20139818)
I can assure you that all is not quiet on the WHBM front - and a few of you know why, especially when those questions were posted .... !!! :)
I think our colleague cs57 was first in with the three TWA stops of 1939 between New York and LA; it's surprising nowadays to think that DC3s were the regular aircraft on New York to Chicago nonstops, for all operators. And S2A was close with suggesting the Boeing Stratocruiser, as those came along for TWA the following year and took over several of these runs. I've time at the moment for just a couple of my follow-ups 1) By summer 1939 there are at least four separate timetable guides for air services across the whole of Europe, each supposedly showing all air services (it is therefore interesting to identify all the differences/omissions between them !). Three of these were published in the UK, and a fourth in Germany, which had an extraordinary style of representation. I have them all. Can you name them ? What was so strange about the German timetable ? The three UK publishers were Cooks, Bradshaw and ABC. Each of these were into train timetables in various forms, and the air services formed a natural extension. ABC were best for oddball UK services (of which there were quite a few), and ones connecting to Britain, Bradshaw tried to do everything in the least amount of paper space, though you eventually get the hang of it, while Cooks edited them quite well. The fourth was the pre-war Lufthansa timetable, which actually did all services in every European country. It wasn't a "timetable" in the conventional sense, but printed the whole lot on a single huge folded sheet stylised map. Here's a small part of it : http://www.timetableimages.com/ttima...9/dlh39-10.jpg 2) There was a scheduled service BETWEEN two London airports ! Which airports, airline, aircraft ? How did the service get its name, one which was very familiar to Londoners ? This was the Inner Circle Air Line, which wasn't a circle but just operated between London's Croydon and Heston airfields with DH84 Dragons. Miniliq got this one upthread. The name was familiar because in those times that was the name of what is now the Circle Line on the London Underground - there were Middle and Outer Circle's in those days as well, now long gone. Air Dispatch (sometimes known as Commercial Air Hire) was an independent operator of anything flying, based at London's Croydon airport, owned by Mrs Victor Bruce, one of the astounding aviatrix's of the time. Born in the 19th century, and having already got records for racing cars and speedboats, around 1930 she bought a plane (a Blackburn), THEN did her first flying lessons, and THEN promptly set off round the world in it and became the first woman to achieve this. Hops between Croydon and Heston (most business was Sunday afternoon first-flight joyriders who then went back on the London bus) were nothing after this. I see on Wikipedia that when she was aged 80 she refreshed her flying skills after a long interval, and then looped-the-loop in a De Havilland Chipmunk. 3) There is a once-daily service between London and Aberdeen. Which is the airline ? This was North Eastern Airways, a little-known but well developed independent operation, inevitably with DH89 Dragon Rapides, stopping at Newcastle and Edinburgh. 4) There are three separate air services between Europe and Bangkok (which during 1939 changed its country’s name from Siam to Thailand). This was a huge run for 1939. Can we name the three carriers and their aircraft types ? The big one was Imperial Airways, operating on most days with their Shorts Empire flying boats, heading through India to Singapore and Australia. Bangkok was a connecting point for Imperial landplanes to Hong Kong. Alongside them were KLM, using DC3s which operated from Amsterdam through some of the same stops and were principally making for Indonesia, though they did carry a significant number of connecting British passengers - just like KLM nowadays ! Third were Air France, Marseille (not Paris) to Saigon in French Indo-China with Dewoitine 338s - and if you know what those are without looking them up, then we should share a drink some evening ! And as for peace and quiet with regard to your particular home front, please do not hesitate to let me know if I can send some helicopter-strength ear plugs your way! @:-) :-: :cool: |
Dupe post! Sorry! A very long day in Houston on biz and I'll be darn glad to get home tomorrow evening!
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