"No computers in standby mode"
 

I was happily on my year end MR to wrap up 1K. On my return flight UA914 SFO-IAD I put my computer into standby as I always do and I was about to stow it overhead. One of the FAs walked by told me that I have to turn it off completely. He stood alongside me and forced me to turn it off. He would not even give me time to bring it out of standby, unlock it and gracefully shut it down. I saw him giving grief to another passenger as well. Then the purser made an announcement to the same effect saying that computers and all electronic devices need to be completely turned off. If this new UA policy or a powertripping FA (set of FAs).

Probably just powertripping. However, technically all electronic devices which aren't on the approved list do indeed need to be powered off.

I put my laptop into hibernation; that is, it writes the contents of memory to disk and fully shuts down. It indeed powers off, but will start up more quickly than from cold shutdown and will of course restore everything to the state it was before I put it into hibernation. This contrasts with a standby mode in which the computer merely shuts off the screen, drives, etc., and goes into a low-power waiting state.

I don't expect the FAs to know the difference, but at least from the technical perspective, one is shutting your computer's power off, and the other is not.

I'm not sure it's a power trip, having noticed recently that the announcements on many flights during the past couple of months have clearly specified that all electronic devices ('Anything with an on/off switch') must be turned completely off, and that 'standby' or 'airplane' mode do not qualify.

Announcement has always been to turn off all electronic devices. I've even seen instructions that specifically include noise cancelling headphones.

As an aside. The new Apple MacBook Air is all solid state and powers up or off in less than 10 seconds.

From what I've seen its fa to fa. Some weeks I will get yelled at cause I have on my QC15's listening to channel 9 at the gate and some weeks they will just walk right by and not say a word.

Hopefully one day they will stop banning the use of cell phones after the door closes. Hate when I get the evil eye from the fa after the door closes and my phone stays on.

While the FA might happen to have been a power tripper, she was correct about "completely" shutting down all electronic devices.

If the ban can be safely rescinded, then yes, that could be a nice change. But in the meantime, if you hate getting the "evil eye" for breaking FAA regulations, maybe you should follow the regulations. :confused: The flight attendant is doing her job by giving you the "evil eye"!

But isn't it powertripping from the PAX that is not technically following the rules? I understand that a turned on electronic device has never been 100% proven to take down a plane but until the rule is lifted and we are allowed to leave them on, is it really that much of an inconvenience to you to shut down your computer /phone etc. And wait the extra 1 minute or so for a power up in the air. Why is it ok for 90% of the PAXs to follow the instructions and why do the other 10% feel they are so special?

Its a rule. Turn off your device. Standby by definition is not turning a device off. What is your problem in turning it off as instructed?

I would have complied with his request but he would have had to wait for me to shut the system down cleanly.

I guess people like him counteract dot-com jokers like my seatmate in C last week SFO-LHR. He was fiddling around with two(!) Blackberrys at once while we taxied to the runway, and had to be told three separate times to shut the things off.

I always put my computer in standby mode, and I have never even given a second thought to the idea that it wasn't "completely off."

You're right that it isn't completely off; I just never gave that any consideration. I'm sure I"m not the only one making this mistake innocently.

(FWIW, ever since I installed the company's PC encryption software, hibernation mode doesn't work too well, so that's when I stopped using it.)

I guess I'm one of those people who don't think the rules apply to me...but my iPhone goes into airplane mode, iPad goes into airplane mode, and my MBP goes into sleep. Anything beyond that is pointless.

Not this problem again :rolleyes:


I've never run into this from an FA, and hope I don't. 99% of the time, they don't mind if I keep my headphones turned on during takeoff & landing..

I really feel sorry for the FA's and other airline employees when passengers think they're on some kind of powertrip when they are simply enforcing the rules.

Exactly.

Though when I first saw the thread title, I though it was a GA who wouldn't allow you to take a computer if you were flying standby. Now that would have been a power trip.

:p I thought that too! I'm a little bit surprised that the actual issue (FA said you have to turn computers completely off) gave rise to a thread.

On my flight last week, I had a guy next to me whose cell phone rang during take-off (not taxi! take-off!), and he answered it and talked until he lost the signal! I really wanted to smack him in the face. But of course, there was nothing I could do...this guy clearly knew the rules and didn't care, because he put awayhis cell phone during the FA safety check (but left it on). And if I rang the call button during the phone call, the FA might have to stand up during take-off, which would be even more dangerous for her. Ugh.

Technically speaking this FA is doing her job (force you to turn it off). Remember the Santonio Holmes (2008 Superball MVP) event?

Putting on devil's advocate goalie-mask....

Maybe it's me but aren't all cell phones and all other electronic devices with an on off switch supposed to be turned off when the announcement is made and not turned on until the announcement is made?

How hard is it to comply with a very simple instruction?

Like most of you, I bring my own n/c headphones and yes, I do turn them off when told and I have been asked a few times if they were off and to show the f/a that the little red power light is off. Do I get mad? Do I think it's a power trip. No and no.

C'mon folks there are more important things in life (like watching your seatmate who refuses to turn off his phone because their e-mail is just oh, so important* get busted by the f/a cuz the phone rang during taxi

*sorry but if one can't live without e-mail for a given period of time (be it waiting until the wifi equipped a/c reaches altitude or until the end of the flight)......

they should not be flying. Or they should be flying a private jet whose crew does not enforce the rules.

(finished that for you ;) )

I'm pretty sure you are, as most people understand the basis for the rule. Everything must be off due to interference from RF emitting sources. Whether you agree that this is an actual risk isn't the issue. I find it hard to believe you don't know what "off" means.

Ouch! :eek: I'm being honest about that, though. I don't know why I didn't think about standby mode not being "off." I suppose I just got used to putting the computer on standby, and I continued that habit during flights.

Now that you mention it, my BlackBerry (and Palm, before that) were never completely "off," either. Sure, I turn the radio off, but the only way I know how to completely turn off my BlackBerry is to pull the battery, and I never do that what I fly.

I asked about this when I worked at the local FSDO (I worked in IT, not in any sort of regulatory or enforcement capacity.) The answer I was given is that noise canceling headsets are not prohibited during any phase of flight by the FAA, (and their use is actually encouraged for hearing protection.) In fact, the FAA has often given guidance to aircraft operators (commercial and private) about the use of such headsets during all phases of flight. How many of us pilots would be in trouble if they were? One example of FAA guidance on the issue is:

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat.../info07001.pdf

This is an "info" from the FAA in 2007 about how using noise canceling headsets could possibly cause a pilot or other crew member to miss a particular noise. (I pointed this one out in particular because it was the only one I found that cautioned about a possible negative effect.) The actual "enforcement" was left up to the particular operators.

There is even a TSO'd microphone (TSO is not required but an airline could require it) for use with the Bose Quiet Comfort Headphones in the cockpit by an aircraft operator:

http://www.uflymike.com/id8.html

(See here for a good discussion on TSOs: http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/542619.html)

Now the FAA also does not restrict an operator/airline from setting some sort of standard about their use--so saying it's against the FAA regulations or FAR's might not be correct, but if an airline has a policy about it, that makes it kind of a moot point. When two organizations have the ability to say no...only one needs to say no.

After saying all of that - The bottom line to me really comes down to simplicity and efficiency for cabin crews. I think it would be a nightmare for cabin crews to memorize some list of approved devices versus non-approved devices. Restricting the headsets during use also minimizes the "well if he can use those, I should be able to use my phone..." arguments. I don't think it really hurts any of us to have our noise canceling headsets, laptops, or phones, off during takeoff and landing--It is such a short phase of flight.

That is *exactly* what I thought this thread was about when I saw the title. It's the only reason I clicked on it. Perhaps a new thread title might be more appropriate?

Someone once told me that the rules in Europe are different, implying that there really isn't much risk. Does anyone know the rules in Europe (or Asia)?

TIA

Well, that's the intention, but the effect is debatable.

What's funny is there really is no "off" on most, if not all, PDAs. You can turn off the screen, but the PDA stays on. The only way to turn it off is to remove the battery.

Once in awhile I'll stick my phone in my bag and forget that it's on until I retrieve it after landing. Heck, I did this a few days ago on DEN-SAN, or maybe it was SAN-DEN. I've done it on international flights. Never intentionally.

I know what the rule is, and I'm not saying I didn't violate it. But I can't be the only person who accidentially leaves things on, either. And no plane crash has been attributed to interference from electronic devices in all the years we've had them. So what does that tell you?

It tells you that a phone being on won't cause crash-inducing interference every time.

It does not tell you that a phone being on will never cause any harmful interference with aircraft operations.

Kindle?
 

I've often wondered about Kindles. Most of the time, I just flick the switch on mine which puts it into a standby mode where it displays a picture of some old author - does that use some juice? You can hold the power switch to turn it all the way off, but I'd be surprised if people really do that because Kindles take a surprisingly long time to boot.

I don't think that uses power. At least not according to the marketing materials. Supposedly it does not cost any battery power to maintain the image on the screen, since the ink particles stick magnetically and don't require continuous current. If so, then I think it counts as "completely off" since it's not using any power or doing anything, and clearing the screen doesn't actually make a difference.

While the reason is stated otherwise - I am pretty sure they dont want NC headphones in use so that you can hear announcements - and in the case of emergency - instructions.

Make sense.

s

That's what I thought, although of course I've been told to "turn off" and stow the device.

No headphones of any type allowed in the UK I'm afraid on take off and landing. They are very strict about it. Your ability to take instructions from the crew in case of an emergency might be impaired is the reason, I imagine.

As the discussion has gotten away from UA and into domestic and international policies generally, please follow the thread to the TravelBuzz forum. Ocn Vw 1K, Moderator, United and TravelBuzz.

:rolleyes: The display is electrophoretic, not "magnetic", however you are correct that the display is bistable and the display draws no power when not being updated. However if the MP is running it could cause EMI. Best to turn it off.

The rule is "fully off". So, no they weren't powertripping, I got grief from a CO FA about that too 2 years ago on TLV-EWR.

Just put it in Standby before they come by and whine about it and you'll be OK. The rule is dumb. Just like the rule about fully off for iphones/bbs. As long as they're in airplane mode, its all the same.

Why do you think that FAs would not know the difference? They have computers, too. They know how computers work. FAs are a bright, intelligent group of people, and I have a lot of respect for them.

The rule is "POWERED OFF". I don't care if you think the rule is dumb; it's the rule. The snooty DYKWIA types are the ones who think the rules don't apply to them, and that their need for electronics supersedes everyone else's need for safety.

I had the FAs tell me several times about NC headsets, even when I had them turned off during take-off. I relented and don't use them until cruise altitude now.
The people that refuse to turn off the laptops or cell phones but the heck out of me. I see guys try to hide their laptops when the FA does the final aisle check before takeoff and they whip them out to get one or two e-mails done. I sat next to an idiot with two blackberries on my last flight that never did turn them off and kept trying to get e-mail on them during take off, throughout the flight, and during landing.
Why are some people so stupid? The rules don't cover them? I wanted to slap him.

The situation with electronics on planes reminds me of trivial little middle school student handbook rules -- there were annoying kids who flaunted the rules To Be Different, annoying kids who proudly complied with the rules To Protect School Safety, annoying instructors who enforced the rules To The Letter (in retrospect, maybe they just needed an excuse to maintain discipline in the classroom), and a vast majority of consumers who barely noticed anything was going on and who forgot entirely about the pointlessness of the system as soon as it stopped affecting them.

With a system like that, there's absolutely no incentive for the frivolous rules to go away, and I doubt they ever will.

The Code of Federal Regulations, including the FAA rules (which used to be called FARs) do not specify that you have to turn "completely off", it is up to the airlines themselves to set these rules, and the pilots/crew (typically for Part 91) to ensure that no device which may cause electronic interference does so during operation of the aircraft. Many of the ways airlines 'enforce' these rules are arbitrary and useless.

That being said, there is one area most folks don't realize there is something vital about all that theatre and b.s. the FAs come up with - your attention span. During taxi to takeoff, and landing, are the most critical times for plane operations with the highest potential for incidents (like bumping into another airplane, etc.). The crew is responsible for making sure you are safe, and for giving you instructions in the event of an incident. Thankfully they are so rare none of us common travelers think about it, but some crafty planners have.

The easiest way to get and keep your attention is to reduce distractions like phones, laptops and other items.

Of course there is the other aspect of laptops, that they are heavy, sometimes metal cased, and not tethered to your body. If the plane were to stop suddenly, such as by accidentally bumping into the ditch on the side of a taxiway many laptops would go flying if they were out and on the laps of busy travelers. Forcing you to turn it off would I suppose make it far less likely you to surreptitiously pull it back out when the FA returns to his/her seat to strap in for their own safety...

It's a no-win situation for the FA's. If another passenger saw the FA letting someone put his/her laptop into standby instead of full shut-down, there will probably be a new thread here called "FA didn't enforce FAA rules by making passengers do full shut-down of laptop computer" :D :D

To the people saying that the FA was just doing his job, I would like to explain that I was not feeling entitled or something like that. Putting the computer into standby seemed to be enough until yesterday, I was wondering if there has been a change in policy. If the answer is that the FA was diligently enforcing policy, that is good enough for me.