IMHO the perfect MP3 player....
 

The Archos Gmini400.

This puppy does Video (albeit on a smallish screen, but perfect for video clips), it does photos (and can copy them off the built in CF slot which can also use an adapter to copy off SD and other formats), it has a lightning fast file management system, is self upgradable, shows up as a 20Gb drive so doesn't require bloated software to load music and even lets you play Mophun games.

It lasts me around 11 hours on one charge, sound is awesome and currently sells with a $40 rebate making it the same price as an ipod photo and is about the same size as well.

The UI is perfect, it is blazing fast and has every feature I need without offering TOO many features. It also has an audio recorder and an optional remote control with FM receiver that will let the device record OFF the radio.

All in all IMHO at the moment the perfect device. On one device I have my favourite music, all my photos and about 40 music video clips. Who needs an ipod when you can get a Gmini!

What about a flash-based player?
 

Ok, this is great for folks that want a micro-drive based MP3 player.
What about the flash-based crowd? I'm trying to narrow it down and I'll take recomendations. My criteria are: MP3 & WMA, 256MB - 1GB, exandable (preferably SD), FM tuner, playlist capable. So how about it? I know the techie-crowd has their $0.02. :cool:

That Archos sounds like a nifty piece of kit, but to be honest I think this walks all over it :)

I concur that Archos makes great machines, its just that I find the Av4100 to be so much better!

This does EVERYTHING except take expandable storage (which is weird considering the manufacturer)...

http://www.sandisk.com/retail/dap.asp

Gmini 400 flawed
 

I'm currently shopping for a player, and the gmini 400 was a strong contender until I realized it did not play DRM protected WMA files like those provided by Napster or Yahoo Music store. According to press releases I've read, Archos was supposed to release a firmware update to address this problem but so far nothing. It would be the perfect device in my mind if they can get it "playsforsure" certified.

I agree that with the sudden surge in DRM retailers PFS would be nice, but I don't buy my music there anyway, all my music is off my own ripped CD's.

The whole WMA/DRM/PFS thing is still pretty new, and so far only 3 or 4 vendors support it, so I hope Archos is working hard on it...

I picked up a Hyundai MP3 player the last time I was in Hong Kong. It has 256MB of internal memory, but also has a slot for SD memory cards. This was the main reason I bought the player, as none of the other players on display at the electronic market had the expansion feature. I have a 1GB SD card in there now and am happy with the amount of music it holds.

The major drawback is power consumption. It uses a single AAA battery, and will last about 5 or 6 hours on an alkaline battery. When using a rechargable battery, that time is reduced to 2 to 3 hours, due to the discharge curve of the rechargables.

As for WMA and DRM, I'm personally not impressed, not because of the copyright protection, but for the rigidity of the format in it's current stage. Even when running on the same PC, I've had problems with players not recognizing it after moving the file from one directory or another, or in one case, after a system restore.

Their AV480 looks like a sweet - if pricey - unit.

If you are gonna drop that much, then the PMA400 would be a better bet anyway... Browser, email, WiFi, keyboard/mouse interface etc... :D

To me that seems like the perfect on-the-road device, but I don't think that dropping $800 on it would go down well with my wife :)

Sorry, too small. Perfect mp3 player needs to be >60gb, preferably 100gb.

Is there anywhere you can actually touch these things in a retail store? No way I'm gonna drop >>$300US on something like this without being able to poke it a bit.

That said the only downside I see here is lack of 3rd party support. If I buy an iPod I can get the necessary bits to control it from the head unit of my regular car stereo where the iPod pretends to be an CD changer. Doubt I'd ever be able to do that with this.

Compusa has a farily decent selection of them, BestBuy has a terrible selection and Fry's has hardly any out at all.

That said, you are correct about the CD changer interface, the ipod is pretty unique when it comes to that.

100gb is still the realm of 2.5" drives, so your dream player would be a bit on the chunky side.

I would have gotten the PMA however the models still have small HD's as opposed to the PVP's that go up to 100 GB's.

Cowon iAudio X5 I cant wait for this to hit the US market. Its selling in Asia and Europe.

Tom's Hardware Guide wasn't overly impressed with the PMA400, mainly due to the PDA features. They recommended a "wait and see" attitude.

Sandisk just came out this month with their new flash drive based 512 & 1gig Sansa line which includes an SD expansion slot. I've read good things about their MP3 players (the flash based version w/out the expansion slot) and that they run for up to 15 hrs on a single AAA battery. The new Sansa line claims to have the same battery life and boasts of an FM radio as well. The new line is selling as low as $134 for the 1 g version (although list price is much higher). Personal online reviews aren't abundant yet as it's too new, but I saw one where someone mentioned his battery life was not as expected (possibly due to running the files off the expansion card??).

I myself am in the pursuit of a new mp3 player. I put it on hold after I got my Treo phone as I can listen to mp3's on that with the 1 gig expansion card, BUT I dont feel at all comfortable using that device (Treo) while exercising or running, although as a mp3 it works great, still I wouldn't like it if I dropped it while exercising , so I dont use it for that.

If it is going to be perfect, it needs to be able to accommodate every mp3 and wma in my collection :)

Cowon makes great players. Good features sets, firmare updates and most importantly awesome sound! I own a G3 and would definitely consider the X5 if I were to buy a HD DAP. The only downsides to the X5 are no gapless play( most DAP's lack this feature) and no ID3 tag support( I am sure a future firmware will change this).

Better sound quality than MP3 OGG?

This is just one of the definitions I found by googling it...

This is an open-source codec, meaning (among other things) that no one has to pay licensing fees when it's used, unlike proprietary codecs such as MP3, WMA, or AAC.
www.cdlabs.co.uk/glossary/

Well, I finally broke down and bought a Rio Forge 512MB. So far so good...
It had all the major criteria that I wanted. It has worked well "out of the box" now for about a week.

I'm going the other way - using the Treo more and more for music. With the 2Gb Sandisk SD cards now released, and the USB sync cable doing the charging at the same time as re-arranging my music, the Treo really has come into its own as the single device ('phone, email, calendar, music player) for getting around - especially on and off thin metal tubes.

I'm darned happy with my I5 - great for audiobooks with both a resume and a tracking feature. And, yes, there are ways to get Audible books to play on it. ;)

I finally broke down and purchased a DAP. I decided the time was right because we were heading out on a 4k road trip. The family's entire music library is now on my DAP.

I researched lots of players and decided on the Cowon iAudio X5 20gb. I love this unit. It's easy to use, has great sound and is drag-and-drop so I don't need any other software. It also has the USB on-the-go port, and support video (on the small screen). I don't care about id3 tag support but FLAC support was important and the X5 has it.

X5 Rocks! ^
 

I purchased the 20GB X5L a month ago and LOVE this DAP. As a former owner of an iPod, I cannot believe how sheepishly I've followed the crowd and believed the hype. Apple has a GREAT marketing machine behind them, but I digress.

The DAP has 35 hours of BATTERY LIFE, an FM Player, line-in recording including the ability to record FM at 320kpbs AND scheduled FM recording, and even more importantly, the ability to play videos AND view pictures. (Cowon should pay me as an advertiser :D)

They just relased a new beta version of their firmware which finally has opened up support for USB on the GO for Canon digital cameras (I have the s500 powershot). This basically means that I can now dump my pictures while on the road directly into my X5 without having to lug around a laptop. Awesome! ^^

All this being said, if the X5 does lack anything, it is support for browing through music via id3 tags. I personally prefer browsing my music library sorted via folder structure that I create to my liking, but it would be nice to have the option to search via Genre, Artist, Album name, etc.

I fly EWR->PER later on this week--my 35 hour battery life will surely be put to the test! Pity those folks whose iPods give way before we even hit the half-way mark. :cool:

Read the review here:
iAudiophile 10 page review
Cnet User Opinions (109 as of 8/6)

OP-I liked the Gmini as a DAP, but did not feel that it was as strong of an MP3 player as the X5. I bought my DAP primarily to listen to MP3's, which the X5 excels at (support for OGG, FLAC, etc. proves this). Additionally, while I'm not an audiophile, there are countless audiophiles who will testify to the fact that the iAudio products are superior to almost all other MP3 players out there.

Maybe we'll need our own X5 forum on flyertalk soon. :D

I am looking at the X5 but what I don't like is that it doesn't charge with USB. Is that correct? So you need a little mini dock thingie and I assume a transformer...yet another charger to carry :(

Also, what is the battery chemistry and is the battery use-replaceable?

Edited to add: the battery is apparently Lithium ion and the battery is not user-replaceable :(

The X5 does charge via USB, just not as quickly with the charger. I do this all the time at work. You do need the mini-doc thingie for USB. There are some on the iAudiophile X5 forum that think it can charge through the USB on-the-go port, but this is unconfirmed.

The battery can be user replaced by removing the 4 screws and taking the back cover off. This would void the warranty, but I suspect the unit would be out of warranty by the time the batts needed to be replaced.

Getting back to the gmini 400

I recently bought one and I couldn't be happier. It takes a tiny bit of fiddling to get it to do exactly what I want but that was less effort than I thought it would be.

Archos has just come out with the gmini 402, same player but with a usb host port instead of the CF slot and some firmware changes (including playsforsure support).

Since I have a CF camera I'm happy with the 400.

I bought 2 X5-30GBs, one for daughter and one for me. Couldn't be happier. It only lacks a bigger hard drive (would have preferred 60GB of course) and ID3 browsing. But it is terrific in every other way.

Cowon announced a few weeks back that they will be manufacturing the 60 GB also and it should be out in future. iaudiophile.net is a very good place to read about Cowon products.

i am in the market for a digital music player, and have been looking at the X5L 30GB. A couple posts in this thread raised questions for me - please excuse my ignorance:

- what is ID3 browsing? i read on another site that you can't play tracks by album with this player? how does the browsing work then?

- what is "gapless" play? Does that mean if i have a live concert with multiple tracks, it will put spaces between the songs? no seamless Scarlet->Fire transition?

thanks!

- ID3 browsing is basically browsing the music on the DAP by the song title, etc. I'm not sure what exactly the other site poster was referring to when they say you 'can't play tracks by album on the iAudio X5. I do that all the time. My music is stored artist/album/track and I can browse and play by either method. I do have to move through the hierarchy to play an individual song. Most of the time I navigate to the album I want and just tell my X5 to play the album and away it goes.

- gapless play is moving from one song to the next without a pause or 'gap'. So, yes there'd be a short gap between tracks in your example.

iAudio seems to be very responsive to their customers and I fully expect them to release a firmware upgrade to support ID3 and 'fix' some of the other minor things. I love my X5 and wouldn't trade it for any of the other players on the market.

I've had several players without ID3 tag support, and they all sucked.

My RIO took around a minute to load the entire track list, my old iriver took up to 3 minutes before I could browse the list.

On my ipod I can browse my collection without any delay or effort, better than any player I've ever had.

I have no delay in browsing my collection on my X5. If my DAP is on I just move the little joystick to navigate up down and it's instantaneous. I load everything Artist\Album\Track but I could just as easily do some other way.

There is no lag when browsing with iaudio/cowon. Basically it is instantaneous, u can even adjust the speed of the display information as it moves from navigation screen to navigation screen. ID3 tags are a little over reated. I thought it would be a problem @ first but it isn't since the majority of my music isn't even tagged( I got tons of music and mixes from IRC and bulletin boards pre-Napster, now I get a ton of it from bit torrent and the Russian sites). I prefer the file tree system over the ID3 because it allows me to organize my music the way I want to in the folders I want. I toyed with the ipod and it is a nice little system but I prefer to use joystick and button navigation with my DAP in my pocket rather than pulling out the DAP and using the click wheel.

But still; after playing with jog wheels (rio), joysticks (iriver) and any other form of button; the iPod scrollwheel is simply the best and fastest solution there is.

I am not going to debate about the fastest way because based on the way I file my songs I doubt if the ipod can get me my music any faster but I do know after using an Ipod and using a iaudio/cowon player; I find the cowon joystick navigation to be a better mechanism for me than the clickwheel. Try a cowon player and tell me what u think.