slickalick

This is an email i wrote to the TG station manager in HKG regarding a situation on board TG608 from HKT that was diverted to Macau due to the Emirates A380 that was stuck on the runway in Hong Kong.

"Dear [name removed per FT TOS],

We have previously met once at HKIA in late 2011, if I remember correctly, you mentioned that they just transferred you from Malaysia, and although I have misplaced your business card, I wanted to contact you directly regarding my experiences aboard TG608 on 7th April which was diverted to MFM due to the runway closure in HKG. My family and I were were seated in Row 11 in J so had a direct view of the situation.

Firstly, I would like to commend your captain on that flight, as he was very calm and professional throughout the entire situation - except that he personally didn't get involved in the situation I describe below.

With regard to the cabin crew, there were several service lapses, however, the biggest issue I have with the cabin crew is how they handled, or in this case, did not handle a disruptive passenger. There was an extremely aggressive and rude German man from Y who came to the J class galley demanding to be let off the plane in MFM - he even called the HK Police twice from his phone claiming that he was being held hostage - all this time swearing and being very, very aggressive towards the cabin crew. At one point he even yelled "I am a terrorist from the Taliban, now you have to let me off the plane" - clearly this passenger was either intoxicated or high on something. At one point he even sat on the crew chair next to the Purser on Door 1L, and with his face and body extremely close to the purser, shouting at her very aggressively saying that "Your brain is full of S@*T" and even worse language. Being in Row 11, and having 2 very young children, I was absolutely concerned about this situation, and I found it incredible that the crew didn't deal with this passenger with more authority. The German family seated in Row 12 also told the purser that they should call the Macau Airport Police to have this person offloaded, and that he would act as a witness to what happened on the flight.

I am absolutely shocked that your crew decided to continue to fly with this passenger without any concern. After we landed in HKG, I was fully expecting that perhaps police would meet us at the gate at HKIA, but this did not happen. If this passenger was on a US airline, there is no doubt he would have been handcuffed by the crew and arrested upon arrival for interfering with the flight crew.

I know that from a customer service perspective, sometimes the best way to diffuse the situation is to be non-confrontational, however, this passenger clearly exceeded the point of being just troublesome to being someone who definitely should not have been allowed to fly further under any circumstance as he was clearly unfit mentally either due to intoxication or some other reason. I can understand also from the crew perspective that if police were involved in MFM it would have delayed our flight further, but there is no reason why authorities in HKG were not notified.

I fly over 100k yearly, and I have witnessed several situations similar to the above, but in each case, they have been handled more professionally by the cabin crew, usually by offloading the passenger and/or involving police.

I look forward to hearing from you in regards to why this situation was handled so poorly by the crew and why your other J class passengers were placed in a situation where there was a serious question mark about continuing to fly with this passenger on board. I know my 3-year old daughter sitting in seat 11A was definitely scared of the situation as the man in question was screaming directly in front of us, and if he had come any closer, I would have been forced to intervene - definitely not a situation you want to put your passengers in.

Best regards,

XXXXXX"

Overall not a very pleasant end to an otherwise good flight. I now that Thai's generally try to be non-confrontational, but the crew was really in poor form in terms of how they handled this passenger.

HONcircle

Well written and thanks for sharing!
Please let us know how TG responds to this serious incident.

A_Lee

I've seen a few different cases of disruptive passengers, and unfortunately TG FA's seem to always be far too timid in dealing with them, as you experienced. They really do need to have different training, so that once a passenger goes beyond some reasonable threshold, they are dealt with in the most severe manner allowable.

In one instance, a German (or at least German speaking) passenger turned on his cell phone as we were on final approach. An FA came by and told him to turn off his phone. He refused and muttered some words which I couldn't hear, then jumped up and ran into the restroom and locked the door. I could hear him yelling into his cellphone in German, quite obviously extremely upset at whoever he was speaking to, though couldn't understand any being I don't know German. Finally after the plane had landed, he came out of the restroom and took his seat. I cannot see how under any circumstance any American based airline would have put up with even that behavior, much less the behavior you witnessed on your flight.

I've seen at least two cases where passengers have refused to abide by the no-smoking rule, and were only given a stern command by the FA that it was a non-smoking flight, and nothing else.

In your case, I think if I was onboard your flight, and there were several other able bodied men nearby, I would have been discussing with them whether we should act together and take on the unruly passenger, subdue him, and then ask the FA's to call the authorities. Given what I perceive to be a somewhat timid/non-confrontational nature of Thais, and that they are not typically of a large/strong body build, I can see that they might have been extremely intimidated by the passenger if he was even close to being of a large size. Still though, no reason at all why they didn't call the police to meet them at the aircraft when it landed.

Should I ever encounter a situation in the future of a similar nature, perhaps the best course of action would be for me to speak to an FA and inquire if the police have been notified. If not, inform the FA to please advice the captain that I intend to personally notify the police that there is a dangerous situation onboard the aircraft, and that it will not reflect well on the TG crew if that happens and they are not the ones to initiate the contact with the police. If they are presented with a situation where there will be conflict either way, then they will much more likely be forced to make a wise decision at that time. Well, I cannot say I'm any expert on the Thai mindset, and would most welcome any Thai people in the forum to comment on this situation and how to best handle it as a passenger desiring that the TG crew take appropriate action, and how to see to it that they do.

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

I agree crew can be a bit timid in dealing with disruptive passengers. I flew BKK-MEL and a ticketed biz class pax (Australian) appeared intoxicated and demanded his friend from economy be allowed to sit with him (the middle seat on the 773 was empty). he yelled and shouted at the crew.

the solution? they allowed his friend to sit there for the entire flight, including meal service (although I didn't see what meal they served, whether it was J PR Y)

Aussie_flyer

Goodness me. That is disgusting from the TG crew, can you imagine how they would handle a REAL threat to the aircraft? Would they just open the cockpit door on demand? I can't believe this guy was not offloaded in Macau and handed to the authorities. He should have been locked up.

IAN-UK

I'm not Thai, so I'm not going to commment on the mindset! But I think you should be careful when you, as a passenger, consider intervening in the situations you describe. The situation could escalate into real violence. And if you assault a fellow passenger, an abusive one or not, you could be the one being led away by police.

The aircraft is under the command of its captain, and usurping his authority is probably not the wisest move. Unless you have been asked to assist by the crew, or there is a very real threat of violence or to flight safety, it might be best to sit tight.

toyotaboy95

This is clearly a vice with flight attendants' training in "customer first" airlines.

A_Lee

Well, I wasn't on the flight to see the situation described by the OP, so exactly what I would have done in that situation, I cannot say with any certainty. But if some passenger claimed to be a terrorist, I cannot think of many circumstances where I would consider allowing him to remain free in the cabin would be very safe. If it meant the difference between me being led away by police, or the passenger potentially causing the plane to crash and everyone die, I think the choice would be obvious to anyone. I don't know either that I would act alone, depending on the exact circumstances and level of threat being presented. But if I was one of several able bodied individuals of sound mind, all deciding that the individual was presenting a clear and present danger to the aircraft and action was necessary, I quite frankly don't care one bit what the flight attendants or captain think. In the end, should I and the others be led away by the police, I can guarantee that a big stink would be made and I doubt it would be long before it became a very public incident and the airline would suffer some very bad publicity.

I know very little about most western countries' policies toward declaring airlines unsafe to fly into their country, but would think if several people came forward to testify that a passenger claimed to be a terrorist, and the airline did nothing about it, there would be a good chance the airline would be blacklisted.

Hopefully TG takes this matter to be of the highest level of importance and looks very seriously into the incident. And if things went down in the way described by the OP, that they take appropriate action to see that this sort of thing never happens again.

slickalick

I think the only reason we didn't intervene was that he didn't match his words with any violent physical actions and based on the crews reactions (smiling, nervous laughter etc.) to him.

The crew did have 2 male stewards that were a bit 'beefy' and could have subdued the passenger and as all this was escalating, one of them blocked the door to the cockpit and the other blocked door 1L incase the nutjob tried to run out (door was open and stairs attached for dispatchers, fuelers etc.) - this just demonstrates to me that the crew did recognise that this passenger could become a threat.

TG have simply responded that their customer service in BKK is looking into the matter and will get back to me soon. Frankly I don't think I'll get any response beyond an apology for the inconvenience.

spk

There is no threat on the cockpit door. Modern cockpit door can easily withstand a crazy guy.

I think the reason that TG crew did not do anything more is because this guy is only verbally abusive so the crew did not want to be the one who start getting physical contact with the abusive guy. I am sure the situation will be different if he did assault the crew.

LordTentacle

This

From a former FA perspective (long long ago I do admit)
You need to let a passenger present a clear and present danger, weapon or physical violence, before you take action.
This can even be as little as pushing past you or touching an AC door etc...

Also if they act up but then sit back down the easiest option on an international flight is to wait until you land and then have the captain talk to the locals on arrival and have the person arrested when they get to immigration. Much quieter and controlled then trying to do in an aircraft

ezefllying

[QUOTE=LordTentacle;18401393From a former FA perspective (long long ago I do admit)
You need to let a passenger present a clear and present danger, weapon or physical violence, before you take action.
[/QUOTE]

Assuming you are distinguishing the OP's threatening passenger from one presenting a "clear and present danger," I very much disagree with your view, and suspect current FAs would as well.

A passenger shouting demands to a crew and acting in an aggressively intimidating manner is conveying an implicit and intentional threat and suggests an emotional instability that could quickly turn into violence.

Now, there are various ways to "take action," and I don't know that every act of aggression from a passenger requires an emergency diversion mid-flight, but a passenger who takes the physical action of getting up out of his seat, closely approaching an FA, yelling demands, and then, sarcastically or not, claiming to be a terrorist, certainly deserves arrest for interfering with a flight crew.

I figure that, if a passenger gives an FA reasonable (operative (and problematic) word: reasonable) cause for concern to his or her safety, then that passenger is a danger and deserves to be handcuffed and eventually met by authorities.

El Puerco Volante

TG is never able/willing to deal with disruptive passengers in my experience.

I been on several TG flights in both F and C where passengers behaved aggressively, verbally abused crew and fellow passengers, allowed themselves to sit in higher classes and/or in seats assigned to others...

Not on one occasion TG did anything about it, except saying "sorry" to anyone involved, including unruly pax.

I try to avoid TG when I can and this is one ( not only ) of the reasons.

Regards,

El Puerco Volante.

wheresmybagba

From my reading of the OPs posts the aircraft was on the ground with the doors open when this incident occured and yet TG allowed the passenger to continue on the resumed flight to HKG.

LordTentacle

I agree the guy should have been offloaded but there might have been an opperational reason such as pulling the guys bags as well that might have made it impossible or would have delayed the flight for an even larger number of hours

TG is a non US airline, the laws that the airline operates under are quite different than US law and I cant even confirm that what the guy did under the laws covering the plane at the time would have been illegal
(Seiously look into what is and isn't illegal for some of the smaller south american carriers)

If the airline was a US carier or being operated in US airspace then I would agree 100% and the guy would have been hog tied in the back of the plane as ballast...