Forum proposal: Spas
 

I love taking spa trips and I am apparently not alone. Two recent studies show that spa-goers have no intention of reducing their spa spending this year despite the economy.

I realize we have city forums where people can ask about spas in certain cities, and that we have hotel forums where members can discuss the spa services at hotels within that chain, but I don't see that as truly serving members who put spas as their top priority. I might plan a trip to South Carolina for a special spa, but it's highly unlikely I'm going to plan a trip to South Carolina and then ask for spa recommendations, for instance. Our current structure does not suit people who travel for spas. (And spas make up a large portion of travel spending - $250 billion globally last year - and that's not expected to drop this year.)

Currently, The Grand Wailea has a fantastic spa deal where for $298 two people can get lunch, each have a 50-minute massage, and experience several other parts of the spa. I would not think to look in the hotel forum for this, but would certainly consider booking a trip to Maui if I saw this posted in a spa forum.

None of the spas I know of at hotels are exclusive to their guests, and often are independently owned from the hotel, so the case could be made they don't really belong in the hotel forums.

Also, there are so many independent spas that there is really currently no place to post reviews or deals and such for on FlyerTalk. You could post them in the city forum, but I'm not going to look in each city forum to find out about a great spa. I only look in the Hawaii forum if I have a question about a trip I'm already planning. Having the Maui spa deal there would do me no good since it alone would cause me (will cause me) to plan a trip. And while I may sound odd in that sense, the studies show people will travel to a destination for the sole purpose of visiting a great spa.

I see potential for threads on different spa treatments, especially where they can be so different in places such as Malaysia with the skin-eating fish; for spa deals at hotels and day spas; for reviews on spas in and out of hotels; for reviews on schools that offered inexpensive treatments from students; for different spa customs throughout the world; and those are just off the top.

I hope TalkBoard will consider adding a forum on what is a growing part of the travel market.

I'm going to be honest here, l'etoile, I'm not sure I see a need for a Spa forum yet. I don't know all that much about the demographics of the spa frequenting guest, but my assumption (though I coud be completely wrong) is that it's mostly women. Would a dedicated thread in the Women's Trave forum or the Luxury Hotels cover the need until more demand is there to warrant a stand alone forum?

Stats I find say 29 percent of spa clients are men, so I do think it's something that could be relevant to FT. You can just look at the money hotels have put into spas to see the relevance to travel in general.

In any event, while I think a dedicated forum would be good for FT, it's not a bad fallback suggestion to keep a thread in the women's forum, and it's something I can certainly take care of. ;)

... and I am sure Kokonutz will take care of it for The Men's Forum.... :D

Opening Pandora's box
 

I really struggle to see what makes going to a spa any different from any other activity one might wish to partake in in a different location.

Sure, some people will travel with the sole purpose of going to a particular spa. But is that not true of any activity or interest? Keen golfers will travel to go to a great golf course. Surfer dudes will travel to a place where they can catch the best wave. Architectural buffs will travel to places rich in architectural treasures. Beach bums will look for the best place to roast. Hardcore party people will travel to places solely based on the nightlife there. Naturists will want to know the best destinations to get their kit off , etc...

Does that mean that we should have a forum for each and every activity or interest that enjoys a core group of enthusiasts (and, incidentally, eviscerate destinations fora in the process)?

FT cannot be everything for everybody. Let it do what it does best and leave other things to be dealt with other sites.

+1.

I know quite a few FTers who visit spas.

I could be convinced that there is an un-met need for this forum.

Golfers have their own websites. Surfers, too, I'll bet. Art history and architecture buffs, maybe. Spa goers, I really doubt it. I'm interested in hearing from other FTers about this.

So? Is it the role of FT to be a general repository for all niche interests that do not have their own dedicated site elsewhere?

As to Spiff's comment, sure there are quite a few FTers who visit spas. But I am sure that there also are quite a few FTers who regularly go to art exhibitions, who are interested in architecture, who like clubbing and dance music, who like opera, who like golfing, who like white-water rafting, etc..

Does that mean that we should have fora for travel and spas, travel and art exhibitions, travel and architecture, travel and opera, travel and clubbing, travel and golfing, travel and extreme sports, etc...?

Where do you draw the line? When FT reaches 999 extra fora, we stop? or do we keep on creating an unlimited number of fora as long as there are a few dedicated enthusiasts on FT?

And what do you do with regional fora once you have given every conceivable type of activity its own home? Do you abolish them?

The problem is, it comes down to a fundamental decision about how information is organised on FT. Outside of airline programmes - do we do it by region or do we do it by type?

Historically, we've done it geographically. So if you have a question about golfing in Scotland, you go ask the UK & Ireland forum, and they do what they can to help.

When the casino question was raised, this exact issue was highlighted - that this would be the first board to 'break' that geographical organisation, and have a board organised by interest - creating the problem that if I want to ask a question about gambling in Las Vegas, do I ask it on the Las Vegas forum or on the casino forum question. As a result, the forum premise was revised after some of us on TB at that time said we couldn't vote for it on those terms, and instead it became more focussed on gambling related programmes and less about gambling generally.

My view is that the problem with organising forums by interest rather than geographically, is that there are an infinite number of interests/hobbies. And to have both geographical and interest forums just leads to confusion about where questions should be posted. So if you go down creating a spa forum, I bet the next forum request would be golf (people travel to play golf). Then wildlife watching (people travel to do that). Then diving. Then shopping. Then fishing. Then afternoon teas. Then sci-fi conventions. Then museums and art galleries. Then movie going. Then baseball. And so on ad infinitum, so long as there are groups of people on FT whose personal interests do not yet have a forum and so they feel excluded. As TB are you prepared to say 'this interest is worthy, this interest is not worthy', meaning people will get upset with you? And what will you say to those who hang out in the destination forums, as those get more and more watered down.

At which point we've got 712 forums which only 5-10 people ever participate in, and with search still rubbish, it becomes impossible to find anything about your destination unless you are willing to check about 40 different forums.

I would say the Dining forum was the first to break the geographical organization. I would liken a spa forum to the Dining forum. It's become an essential part of travel much as dining has. I would say it's not like most other activities as anyone can visit a spa, and spas within hotels are becoming increasingly popular, especially among business travelers. We did give a go at an activities forum (forget the exact name), but it did eventually get removed for lack of interest.

Hmmm. Everyone has to eat. Not everyone has to spa. (And I say that as a regular spa attendee! :o :D)

And the rule in dining is that location specific threads get moved to the appropriate destination forums. So to carry the analogy from your opening post further, a spa review for a particular spa would be moved onto the appropriate destination forum. So actually, what you are asking for is breaking away from how dining works.

As to 'anyone can spa' - well I'm afraid that anyone can golf, anyone can wildlife watch etc etc etc. Most activities can be carried out by anyone if they have the time and inclination - it's just that not everyone does.

Understand that I have no particular objection to a spa forum per se - it's the principle this creates that I have a real problem with, and the fact that the arguments that you are advancing are applicable to so many other activities, that to go down this route has the potential to mark a major change in how FT is organised - and in the long term, not for the good either, as information gets fragmented across multiple forums.

Agree and are opinions I've long held when the topic was debated with special interest fora creation such as travelling with pets. I still fail to see how a forum for every niche and demographic serves FT and it's mission. Sure FT has grown beyond it's original borders but to me that doesn't have to mean abandoning its core purpose.

I also think there needs to be a formal policy on new forum traffic so that when new forums are created there is some way to meaure the relative popularity of a forum and shutter it should it fail to meet a minimum traffic flow threshold. I know some here don't like applying useage metrics but having many lightly used forums IMHO doesn't serve FT either. However YMMV.

The Dining forum is specifically for topics which are not geographically specific. If you eliminate location-specific issues, I fear that a spa forum will become a small puddle rather than a large pool.

Your own argument " spas within hotels are becoming increasingly popular, especially among business travelers" points towards a location-specific rationale: your business traveler is interested in a spa in the location where her business takes her, not on another continent.

If we go back to your OP, what you describe the forum as being for is not spa as an integral part of travel but a forum for individuals who put spas as their priority, who travel for spas. The argument that "spas is an essential part of travel" (assuming the argument to be well-founded) does not justify a forum specifically for people who travel for spas.

Once you allow a forum specifically for people who travel for spas, how could you then possibly deny a forum for people who travel for any other particular activity or interest?

It seems to me that "traveling with" type topics are different from "traveling for" type topics: there are only a few sensible "traveling with" topics and they are necessarily and inherently closely linked to the act of traveling itself. There are virtually no limits to "Traveling for" type topics and the risk of hyper-fragmentation for the latter is particularly severe.

"traveling with" or "traveling for" regardless forum proliferation winds up creating the same thing though I see your distinction.

Please keep the excellent discussion coming.

I'm wondering whether a future software build with tagging capability could solve this. At fatwallet you can tag a thread with keywords and the user can filter on keyword to narrow the scope to the subject of interest. In effect, each user can see a different subset of the same forum.

1) Whether some one wants to raise this with TB or not, it's not a burning issue for me. I would like to see it here, but if it doesn't get past here, I'm fine with that. Lots of travel magazines that I would say compete with FT are taking spas on in a bigger and bigger way, recognizing that they are becoming a large part of the travel market (and no, birding and the like is not the same). While I believe FT can do it better due to the reviews we can provide and the photos, I'm fine to turn more of my attention to magazines.

2) There is often a big difference in how some individuals and TalkBoard members *want* members to use forums and how they actually use those forums. I too would like it somewhat more streamlined. Currently, with spas, the few who've posted here seem to think those should all appear in regional forums. But the reality is that seldom happens. I've gotten my best information on dining and spas buried in Trip Reports, second would be those I happened upon in hotel forums, hidden in hotel review threads. I seldom see spa reports in destination forums. That's where some TB members and a few other FT members may like to see them; but the reality is that's not where you're most likely to find them. So do you stick to what exists or modify and change when the results don't conform to what you want to see?

3) Is FT's goal to grow and adapt with changing trends and conditions or to remain stagnant? The board grows with new members daily and changes are often needed. We have some forums where if you don't look at the front page every hour, you will miss the latest news. Getting topics that are specific to a certain market out of those forums (Travel with Pets, for example) helps the majority of the readers of those busy forums by leaving the general-interest topics, while giving a forum to those who have more specific needs and questions. Ditto for Travel with Children and others. I don't check Travel with Pets, but by the threads I see pop up from there when I read "new posts" it seems to have done well.

FlyerTalk's a large board. I agree organization is a huge issue, especially as the board continues to grow. Meeting changing needs, I would hope, does not mean refusing to change and sticking to something that may or may not work either now or in the future.

Thanks to those who work to try and keep things in balance and tackle these questions. And thanks to those of you who sent me spa suggestions and deals. This thread has been worthwhile to me if just for that. :)

I don't see a lot of mention of the spas in trip reports for hotels on FT. Some of the hotels have fabulous spas. Since there isn't much talk about the spas that people are, or are not, frequenting already at the hotel level, I doubt there is enough interest to warrant a forum for spas.

Is that entirely fair? I'm sorry but I don't see refusing to cater to every single niche, demographic or interest as embracing stagnancy at all though the beauty of FT is we can have differing opinions and debate them civilly. FT has grown and changed with the times but it shouldn't mean IMHO that we stray so far from the core purpose that the place becomes almost unrecognizable and of less interest to the core users.

Actually, there is talk in individual hotel trip reports. Usually, it's just a sentence or two ... "and the hotel has a lovely spa" ...but search the word "spa" and you will find much mention in hotel and trip reports. I suspect a spa forum would get more detail than what we now see, but do FTers use spas, yes.

I was speaking in the broad sense, as I believe you had a bit of a general resistance to new forums and mentioned the Travel with Pets forum, in particular, as one you did not wish to see. I was simply pointing out that as FT grows, some niche forums help us all by getting what some of us might consider to be "clutter" out of forums and into one where those with that interest can easily find what they are looking for.

I don't see very many (if any) spa threads "cluttering up" the forums that would warrant the creation of its own forum.

Creating new forums for each niche interest might make it easier to know where a thread should be posted but it does not mean many members will visit or post in that forum.

So you would agree there isn't much discussion about it. A sentence or two, here and there. I imagine that if people don't feel it is relevant to include as much information about the spa as the do about breakfast that there isn't much of an unanswered need. Perhaps those who enjoy spas, myself included, can put more detail in Trip Reports and see if it generates discussion.

What about a "Best SPG Spa in X" thread to get things started?

Not exactly, but nonetheless were there much in the way of trip reports before there was a trip reports forum? Were there many dining questions before there was a dining forum? Was there nearly as much talk about photography before there was a photography forum? Your premise overlooks the fact that sometimes there is an interest (and the search would show spas are popular among members), but without a place to put it that interest is not obvious or is easily overlooked. I write very little, if anything, about the spas I go to because I simply feel there's really no place for it.

I'd say all of those things did exist, but they were scattered about in other forums. That was the demonstrated need that was shown when the decision to recommend the creation of those forums was made, at least on my part. I believe that some of my fellow TalkBoard representatives felt the same way or similarly, but I do not presume to speak for them.

Until this thread I was unaware of the Dining forum. When I am interested in discussing dining I turn to the forum for the region/country and ask the questions there.

Two examples:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thail...ok-eating.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...t-lunches.html

I'll check out the Dining Forum but it seems to me that it would be inconvenient to look for Bangkok dining options in a general forum where it is less likely to be seen than it would be in the Thailand forum.

The same goes for spas that are in hotels. If I want to know something about the spa in the Le Meridien Khao Lak I'd first head to the hotel master thread. If I wanted to discuss spas in Sydney I'd go to the ANZ forum and ask.

I guess that's what I'm saying now ...spas are presently discussed, but scattered about in various forums so they are difficult to locate (mainly they come up in trip reports and individual hotel reports). And they are probably not discussed to the degree they would be in a specific forum, much as the other topics I mentioned were not discussed to the degree they are now that they have their own forums.

Perhaps some day if I've got a lot of free time, I will "demonstrate the need" by digging up and posting links to endless threads with spa discussions in them. Unfortunately, I don't see that day ahead.

l'etoile, if FT Search works properly, you could create an index thread (in TravelBuzz, in a similar way to the Duty Free Index I created in DiningBuzz) and ask people who have posted questions or noticed Spa threads, to put a link into a post in your index.

It's then just a matter of checking the index thread and linking the recent posts into an update of the Index.

This way, you can encourage people to check in and post links to threads in TrawvelBuzz, the Hotel program & Luxury Hotel forums, country forums, Women Travelers, GLBT forum etc.

Then put a link to the index in your signature. :)

Cheers,
BB

[Needless to say, this is as an interim measure, to gauge interest and as a way for you to aggregate threads, if you need to demonstrate the level of interest. In the case of Duty Free, the thread gets a lot of hits but not too many updates. ;)]

Thanks BiziBB. I appreciate the helpful post.

glad I found this discussion
 

I almost always visit spas when I travel and would love a spa forum both to post notes about my experiences and to find out where others have gone. I have planned and would plan a trip esp in the US around a particularly great spa esp as i get older and more stressed :)

So while I am unlikely to ever write a full on trip report I would definitely post a spa report....

As a female who uses spas, truthfully I don't see it being a big enough demographic to justify a new forum. I get the nat'l percentages yada yada, but to quote from the OP's original post, she goes to a certain locale just for spas. I look for spas in areas that I go to. For me the current method works because in my (unofficial) opinion, I'm probably more of the norm than the OP (who I have a lot of respect for, so not a diss there).

OVMV. Cheers.

And you should keep doing so. The remit of the Dining forum is not for location-specific discussion of dining options and such posts are systematically moved to the relevant geographic forum.

A spa forum would have to focus on non-geographic issues. Trouble is, most discussions of spas would, it seems to me, be location specific and therefore fall within the remit of the geographic fora. I do not think that it is established that there are substantially more (actual or potential) members who specifically travel to a destination with the sole purpose of visiting a spa than there are for many other activities.

Even if it were established that there was a sizable chunk of such spa-focused individuals, we would first have to consider the issue of principle of whether we want FT to remain a BB which is focused primarily on Frequent Flyers or become yet another generic, all-purpose travel site. And I would rather have the issue squarely addressed on its own merits rather than being decided implicitly without considering the wider implications in the context of a discussion on a narrower specific topic.

No spa forum before a gelato forum.

Maybe for the time being we could run this under the womens forum. I'm not only interested in quality spas but the treatments as well. I'm always hestitant to drop a great deal of cash on a treatment that I haven't tried before and tend to just stick with reflexology or massage.

If anyone wants to hear of the great Thalasso scrub I just had in Cabo let me know.

Wirelessly posted (Blackberry: BlackBerry9000/4.6.0.167 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

Thing is, I enjoy spas and I'm a dude. :)

Wirelessly posted (Nokia N97 / Palm TX: Mozilla/5.0 (SymbianOS/9.4; Series60/5.0 NokiaN97-3/10.2.012; Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1; en-us) AppleWebKit/525 (KHTML, like Gecko) WicKed/7.1.12344)

I can help....

:D

It seems like this could be solved by modifying the definition of the Luxury Hotels forum, which I suspect already has many of the same posters.

I support the suggestion by l'etoile. On almost every trip I make with Lady Martinis at 8, we visit a spa. These can be standalone spas or spas that are part of a hotel. I have not found spa review guidance here at FT, and quite frankly I think it would play a role in our hotel selection.

At spas I like the massage therapy, which is of course therapist dependent, and I like the hot/cold tubs, saunas, steam, and workout facilities. Sometimes I will get my right hand manicured (Flamenco guitarist) if there is a manicurist there. Lady Martinis at 8 likes the same, but also gets a variety of skin and/or facial treatments. Spas are popular. Let's go for it with a forum. I for one would be willing to post reviews of the ones I have been to.

Cheers,

M8

Great idea.