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-   -   UPDATE: Motion Adopted: Close the Senior Travel Forum (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/915747-update-motion-adopted-close-senior-travel-forum.html)

kokonutz Jan 29, 2009 1:19 am

UPDATE: Motion Adopted: Close the Senior Travel Forum
 
Moved by Spiff and seconded by skywalkerLAX :

that the Senior Travel forum be closed and its content sent to TravelBuzz or other appropriate fora.

This poll will close on Feb 11, 09 at 7:27 pm or after all TalkBoard members have cast their votes, whichever comes first.



Per the TalkBoard Guidelines:
The purpose of posting voting topics in the public TalkBoard Topics forum is to solicit member feedback on any motions that are up for a vote and to allow for comments after a vote is made. It is at the sole discretion of the individual TalkBoard members whether they choose to post in the public discussion thread, there being no requirement to do so.

So while there is already a thread and discussion on this general topic, and it is safe to assume that TalkBoard members have reviewed that thread, this thread is about this specific motion. Please feel free to post questions, comments or any other sort of feedback.

BiziBB Jan 29, 2009 1:30 am

I suuport the wording of this motion and the motion itself, unless there should be compelling evidence presented in this thread to not support the motion.

As our representatives, I expect TB members to make an informed decision and to vote in a timely manner, once you have evaluated the evidence and arguments.

Thanks in advance for this vote. ^

ozstamps Jan 29, 2009 6:10 am

Interesting political choice. :td:

Might I ask when the motion to vote to close the equally non visited DISABILITY TRAVEL forum will occur?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/disability-travel-224/

Oops .. that will be too politically incorrect for any one to even DARE suggest, much less find a seconder.

Consistent inconsistency ...... that's what we all love to see from our elected reps. ^

Glen
.

Spiff Jan 29, 2009 6:14 am


Originally Posted by ozstamps (Post 11162829)

Might I ask when the motion to vote to close the equally non visited DISABILITY TRAVEL forum will occur?

Start a thread and make a convincing case instead of wild, unproveable "political" allegations is my suggestion if you feel any forum should be closed.

Tacking on conspiracy theory-driven requests for additional forum closure isn't going to get much attention from me. However, a separate thread with a convincing argument might. @:-)

ozstamps Jan 29, 2009 6:18 am

There is as much - or as little - use of both Forums Spiff.

Which is self evident.

No case needs be made. The numbers are there.

Here's a suggestion from a member, that you are obliged to take to TB .. make the motion.

No motion means pure politics with this one. FT'ers are not as dopey as many imagine. ^

Spiff Jan 29, 2009 6:21 am


Originally Posted by ozstamps (Post 11162861)

Here's a suggestion from a member, that you are obliged to take to TB .. make the motion.

Sorry, no compelling argument has been made and attempting to do so here is off-topic, as far as I am concerned.

Start another thread and do try to be convincing. ;)

Jenbel Jan 29, 2009 8:10 am


Originally Posted by ozstamps (Post 11162861)
There is as much - or as little - use of both Forums Spiff.

Which is self evident.

No case needs be made. The numbers are there.

Here's a suggestion from a member, that you are obliged to take to TB .. make the motion.

No motion means pure politics with this one. FT'ers are not as dopey as many imagine. ^

Oz, when I raised this again, I produced data which demonstrated that the seniors forum was stagnating. It appears that has been sufficiently persuasive to convince at least some members of TB. But I went out and gathered data and facts to support my position - I didn't just express an opinion and expect it to be listened to.

If you are really concerned about the Disabled Travellers forum, why don't you start a separate thread, produce the kind of data which has been produced for Seniors (and as a TB member, i did a lot of analysis and polling of members who were using the forum to find out their views, all of which is already in the private forum)?

Otherwise it looks like you are just trying to use the Disabled Travellers forum as a leverage to try and prevent the closure of a forum which is clearly not doing well. The data for seniors is pretty irrefutable.

trekkie Jan 29, 2009 8:29 am

no,leave the forum as it is. thanks

magiciansampras Jan 29, 2009 8:39 am

How long before the mystery FTers come out of the woodwork to say how much they use this forum? :)

CameraGuy Jan 29, 2009 9:09 am

Shut it down, there are far too many forums as it is.

Jenbel Jan 29, 2009 9:16 am

Ok, because Oz keeps saying Disabled is as inactive as Seniors, I've done the same analysis for Disabled that I did for seniors. The numbers below show seniors forum, followed by disabled travellers, and they are the number of new threads posted in any month.

May: 11 8
Jun: 3 4
Jul: 4 5
Aug: 0 5
Sep: 2 1
Oct: 3 6
Nov: 2 7
Dec: 0 7
Jan: 1 4

Total: 26 47

Disabled Travellers is running at twice the usage rate of Seniors. If we remove May, in which seniors started so got a splurge of threads started at that time by those who had been petitioning for it (i.e. look at ongoing rates only) we see that Seniors had only 15 threads while Disabled Travellers had 39. Monthly rates become less than 2 threads per month for Seniors and more than 4 threads per month for disabled.

Can we stop with the canard that Disabled is as inactive as Seniors? Given the relatively small number of people who may have a need for Disabled, versus the large proportion of the population which falls into the Seniors category, I actually think that the Disabled community is working pretty well.

NickB Jan 29, 2009 9:28 am


Originally Posted by Jenbel (Post 11163859)
Ok, because Oz keeps saying Disabled is as inactive as Seniors, I've done the same analysis for Disabled that I did for seniors. The numbers below show seniors forum, followed by disabled travellers, and they are the number of new threads posted in any month.

May: 11 8
Jun: 3 4
Jul: 4 5
Aug: 0 5
Sep: 2 1
Oct: 3 6
Nov: 2 7
Dec: 0 7
Jan: 1 4

Total: 26 47

Disabled Travellers is running at twice the usage rate of Seniors. If we remove May, in which seniors started so got a splurge of threads started at that time by those who had been petitioning for it (i.e. look at ongoing rates only) we see that Seniors had only 15 threads while Disabled Travellers had 39. Monthly rates become less than 2 threads per month for Seniors and more than 4 threads per month for disabled.

Can we stop with the canard that Disabled is as inactive as Seniors? Given the relatively small number of people who may have a need for Disabled, versus the large proportion of the population which falls into the Seniors category, I actually think that the Disabled community is working pretty well.

Jenbel, how dare you spoil a good conspiracy theory with facts? If we start debunking myths on TB topics, this forum will be the next one to be closed for being dormant. :D

tcook052 Jan 29, 2009 9:45 am

I support the motion as made.

gleff Jan 29, 2009 9:46 am

My own view is that senior travel is (a) inactive and (b) doesn't have content that's unique to the audience, ie about how seniors travel differently than everyone else.

Disabled is a bit more active and also more relevant.

ldsant Jan 29, 2009 5:42 pm

I think with numbers supporting that this isn't very active and it never hurts to bring in new forums that might have a broader appeal, my comments are close this forum.

Hunki Jan 30, 2009 11:09 am

1 Vote to keep it open
 
I still don't see what the problem is with you people who have the notion that just because the posts are low, that it's using up too much bandwidth so that it has to be closed.

If you don't use it, so what, you have plenty of other places to play.

cblaisd Jan 30, 2009 11:35 am

As I noted in the other thread, 38% of the posts are by the same three members or former members of FlyerTalk. While they clearly find value in the venue to discuss things, I don't think that outweighs the fact that having this forum makes information harder to find for the ordinary FTer. As it is, if you're a senior wanting information on, say, rail travel discounts in Italy you just have to "know" to check the Senior forum, Budget Travel, the European Rails forum, and the Italy forum.

This doesn't help FT be an easy-to-use resource.

bhatnasx Jan 30, 2009 1:44 pm

For what it's worth, to the "politics" minded folks, for the record, the person who brought forth this motion originally voted for the forum:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/town-...vel-forum.html

So, I don't believe politics is an issue at hand.

Personally, I thought the Senior Travel forum was a bad idea from the beginning and still believe it is. cblaisd's points above echo my current thoughts on the matter.

nsx Jan 30, 2009 2:42 pm


Originally Posted by gleff (Post 11164091)
My own view is that senior travel is (a) inactive and (b) doesn't have content that's unique to the audience, ie about how seniors travel differently than everyone else.

This is exactly my thinking on the subject so far.

Each forum on FT needs to pull its own weight by providing value sufficient to justify the imposition of small inconveniences on every user of FT, e.g. by cluttering the forums list with one more entry.

Also, we can't reasonably deny new forum requests in marginal cases if they can point to the TalkBoard's support of a forum that serves only a literal handful of members with no unique needs. This is how it has to be, no matter how much we may like and respect the particular handful of members.

I'm open to persuasion, so give it your best shot, but make it fast.

Jenbel Jan 30, 2009 3:09 pm


Originally Posted by Hunki (Post 11171551)
I still don't see what the problem is with you people who have the notion that just because the posts are low, that it's using up too much bandwidth so that it has to be closed.

If you don't use it, so what, you have plenty of other places to play.

It seems you are not understanding why some of us are asking for it to be closed.

It's not the bandwidth. It's the principle. Until TB is able to deal with failing forums, then they have to be more conservative with new forums.

That is seriously detrimental to those who want to suggest new forums, which may be more successful than Seniors (although that isn't too hard :() or ultimately be able to build a community of users as I know from personal experience that an inability to close forums can cause TB members to be more conservative in their willingness to give forums a try.

It seems pretty selfish then for the really small number of active users on this forum to ask that their forum be kept open for a handful of people, at the expense of future forums which may actually be able to work.

SkiAdcock Feb 1, 2009 11:41 am

I support the motion as made.

Cheers.

ozstamps Feb 2, 2009 7:16 am


Originally Posted by Jenbel (Post 11163859)
I actually think that the Disabled community is working pretty well.


Thanks for taking the time to prove my point. And it clearly is NOT working "pretty well."

Using your OWN stats, 4 new threads in disabled for the past month is about one new thread a week. Agree?

As I said, the Forum is dead, and almost not used, and your stats proves it .. TB please vote to close it too.

kokonutz Feb 2, 2009 8:55 am

I hate to say it, because I am one who has used Disabled Travelers, but I think Ozstamps is correct: if we are going to close Seniors as a 'failed' forum based on use metrics then we have to close 'disability' as a failed forum if we apply the same metrics.

Of course, as Gleff points out, it really ISNT all about post metrics. It's also about serving a unique community in a rifle-shot way.

So turning to that way of thinking, here are the reasons I can see to support a seniors travel forum (as stated last May):

- Seniors have unique travel issues related to tastes, endurance and health.
- Seniors have unique travel patterns based on their spare time and cash.
- Saving points and miles for retirement is one of the top reasons people participate in points and miles programs. Makes sense to have a specific place on FT to talk about spending them for that purpose.
- Demographically seniors are the fastest growing population in the developed world.
- Other major travel sites have a seniors forum.


Now having said that, I still have to, in my own mind, reconcile the potential for this forum against its use.

Is it that there are fewer seniors on line and comfortable in a FT-like environment? Is it that few people like to think of themselves as seniors? Some combination of these and other factors?

I don't know.

If the forum stayed around for another six months or year might that change and the potential be lived up to?

I don't know.

Saying this forum has been successful does not pass the red face test (to me, same applies to disability, fwiw). The question is: does that mean it needs to be shut down today?

I guess I still haven't decided.

magiciansampras Feb 2, 2009 9:00 am


Originally Posted by kokonutz (Post 11186009)

So turning to that way of thinking, here are the reasons I can see to support a seniors travel forum (as stated last May):

- Seniors have unique travel issues related to tastes, endurance and health.
- Seniors have unique travel patterns based on their spare time and cash.
- Saving points and miles for retirement is one of the top reasons people participate in points and miles programs. Makes sense to have a specific place on FT to talk about spending them for that purpose.
- Demographically seniors are the fastest growing population in the developed world.
- Other major travel sites have a seniors forum.

Don't the poor numbers suggest that these things are either 1) unimportant or 2) misperceived? If the needs of seniors truly were unique, wouldn't we see more traffic in the forum? :confused:

All you need to do is take a look at where folks like Rudi and others who use the seniors forum hang out and post. They're in the places all the rest of us hang out and post. The reason is that they're getting their questions and answers from the same places as the rest of the FT community. The need is being met elsewhere.

kokonutz Feb 2, 2009 9:16 am


Originally Posted by magiciansampras (Post 11186047)
Don't the poor numbers suggest that these things are either 1) unimportant or 2) misperceived? If the needs of seniors truly were unique, wouldn't we see more traffic in the forum? :confused:

All you need to do is take a look at where folks like Rudi and others who use the seniors forum hang out and post. They're in the places all the rest of us hang out and post. The reason is that they're getting their questions and answers from the same places as the rest of the FT community. The need is being met elsewhere.

I agree.

BUT, couldn't you make the same case for ALL of the Special Needs forums?

It's more about community and organization. Why has the GLBT community taken off but Seniors not? THAT's the question I'm pondering.

BTW, any chance folks would want to take out the 'i' and put a tilde over the n...you know, change it to a Señor forum!? :)

magiciansampras Feb 2, 2009 9:19 am


Originally Posted by kokonutz (Post 11186151)
It's more about community and organization. Why has the GLBT community taken off but Seniors not? THAT's the question I'm pondering.

I think it is because, to be perfectly blunt, GLBT travelers actually do have a special travel need and seniors don't. Senior travel is close enough to regular travel that many of the questions can be answered elsewhere. GLBT, it seems, has questions that can only really be answered and appreciated by GLBT travelers.

ozstamps Feb 2, 2009 9:23 am


Originally Posted by kokonutz (Post 11186151)

BTW, any chance folks would want to take out the 'i' and put a tilde over the n...you know, change it to a Seņor forum!? :)

But that would make it a MEN'S forum .. and no-one would use that.

Look what a flop the WOMEN'S Forum has been after all. ;)

Sorry, gotta go .... that is my cellphone ringing ..... someone called Peterson ......

Spiff Feb 2, 2009 9:23 am


Originally Posted by ozstamps (Post 11185403)
Thanks for taking the time to prove my point. And it clearly is NOT working "pretty well."

Using your OWN stats, 4 new threads in disabled for the past month is about one new thread a week. Agree?

As I said, the Forum is dead, and almost not used, and your stats proves it .. TB please vote to close it too.

If you really wanted it closed, you'd start a new thread and make a solid argument for closure. Instead, you're just making off-topic posts in this thread, possibly to divert people from discussing the matter at hand.

While I do welcome FlyerTalkers' input, yours, in this case, is just not going to carry any weight with me.

magiciansampras Feb 2, 2009 9:24 am

ozstamps raises a good point. Is this vote really going to mean anything? Do we really think Randy is going to let TB shutter the senior's forum?

ozstamps Feb 2, 2009 9:31 am


Originally Posted by magiciansampras (Post 11186217)

ozstamps raises a good point. Is this vote really going to mean anything? Do we really think randy is going to let tb shutter the senior's forum?

who has been leaking you secret info????

This vote result is not announced yet!

Spiff Feb 2, 2009 9:39 am


Originally Posted by magiciansampras (Post 11186217)
ozstamps raises a good point. Is this vote really going to mean anything? Do we really think Randy is going to let TB shutter the senior's forum?

My money is on Randy taking the TalkBoard's advice on this one, though I certainly do not presume to speak for Randy.

Spiff Feb 2, 2009 9:53 am


Originally Posted by ozstamps (Post 11186263)
who has been leaking you secret info????

This vote result is not announced yet!

Other than once again trying to get a spot on Conspiracy Theory or some similar TV programme, what evidence do you have of magiciansampras' posting to be factual in any way? :confused:

magiciansampras Feb 2, 2009 9:55 am


Originally Posted by Spiff (Post 11186433)
Other than once again trying to get a spot on Conspiracy Theory or some similar TV programme, what evidence do you have of magiciansampras' posting to be factual in any way? :confused:

To be fair, my posting was a question, not a statement of fact. Other FTers may decide whether or not the question is answered affirmatively or negatively. ;)

ozstamps Feb 2, 2009 9:57 am

I must be having a Senior Moment

Yikes I hope not .. there is no forum for that anymore it seems ................ :)

Spiff Feb 2, 2009 9:58 am


Originally Posted by ozstamps (Post 11186459)
I must be having a Senior Moment

Yikes I hope not .. there is no forum for that anymore it seems ................ :)

Sure there is! It's called Omni. :)

ozstamps Feb 2, 2009 10:04 am


Originally Posted by Spiff (Post 11186468)
Sure there is! It's called Omni. :)

Keep away from there is my advice.

I read that the CIA and the FBI linked up with google and are raiding 1000s of homes each week looking for culprits and miscreants. It is a big issue I understand.

Unless you change your handle or delete all your posts there all is lost. @:-)

skywalkerLAX Feb 2, 2009 10:36 am

My standpoint: We have new forum requests all the time and just recently passed the motion for the European Rail Forum which seems to be well accepted.

Now, in order to let all these new forums develop themselves or at least giving them a chance to do so, I rather take forums away that failed to do just this in the past. Let's keep FT clean and organized !

To add more and more and more mini-fora with little to no traffic makes no sense and doesnt serve FT in any way in the whole picture, and a handful user in total just doesnt justify an own forum IMHO. Every FTer is important to the community but we dont operate private chatrooms or an interactive friday evenings club with 3 members.

So for the sake of giving new proposals a reasonable chance, please folks understand the background of this. :)

Cheers,
S

Rudi Feb 2, 2009 2:33 pm


Originally Posted by Jenbel (Post 11172961)
... It seems pretty selfish then for the really small number of active users on this forum to ask that their forum be kept open for a handful of people, at the expense of future forums which may actually be able to work.

I take this very personnel - how does anyone dare to call me selfish for what I do/did on/for FlyerTalk?

linsj Feb 2, 2009 2:39 pm

Depending on how you define senior, I probably fit this demographic--at least by AARP definition although I'm not ready to retire. I have checked this forum maybe 3-4 times and never found any topic useful that couldn't have been discussed in another forum and gotten a broader audience. I say close it.

Rudi Feb 2, 2009 2:44 pm

my personal judgement is based on

1) lurkers = how many people are interested and look into existing threads/posts
2) posted opinions of current forum users
3) future potential of a currently still low traffic forum (we all get older, slowly but surely)
4) estimation of positiv / negativ effects on FlyerTalk if closing or not closing a/this forum

last but for me (as a FlyerTalk Oldie = Senior/Veteran) not least: a 'historic' FT look back: my (sometimes now a little bit failing = senior moments) memory 10 years back 'tells' me that no forum for a whole year in the first year of FlyerTalk had the traffic (number of lurkers) that this forum has now.

I recommend to leave it (this Senior forum) as it is.


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