Like missy, I have a similar view of personal attacks. While not entirely subjctive, it's an area where "I know it when I see it" often appropriately applies.

Where the problems come in with personal attacks on FT in my view, is when the "who started it" trumps the actual attacks. Were I elected to the Talk Board, (which I realize with such excellent candidates is highly unlikely http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif )I would work with Randy to better formulate a policy to issue timeouts to ALL parties in an attack. Unless an an attack is truly iunprovoked, and goes on without an attacking reply from the "attackee" I think both parties need to cool it...

I realize the hands off policy is the more popular one - but having abandoned several fora for various lengths of time and feeling held hostage each time, I would like to work with Randy to institute a somewhat stricter timeout or warning policy for repeat offenders and others.

I think a personal attack is lashing out at the person rather than the issue.

I don't think there are many personal attacks on FT.

I favor a hands-off approach. When I moderate, I steer the discussion back to the issues.

I do not favor changing anything about FT structurally. I think things are good already and would not want to destroy the FT spirit of mutual helping.

There are clearly a group of people here who like provoking other members. People bite and we get in a 'flame-war' where posts go back and forth getting more offensive.
When I first came to Flyertalk we had many more topics and posts on - this offer is here - that offer is there. Things were more interesting and stable.
Since then we get in every sort of argument and perhaps that is more like a real community.
However, there are some members who need to think carefully about whether they really should stay here is all they do is to bait certain others.
I think that control of 'time-outs' by Randy is excellent but that the TalkBoard should actively make suggestions.

"the TalkBoard should actively make suggestions."

meaning... TB should suggest candidates for timeouts? Is that what you mean? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif

FewMiles..

... and yet people still wonder why I advocate a STRONG separation of TalkTeam and TalkBoard.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

chexfan, I'm glad you illuminated this topic.

As a voter, the best way for us to see what the candidates feel about personal attacks is to read their very own posts. Like a politician for any kind of elected office, a few might say what sounds right to get elected. What's great about FT is that we can see exactly what has been said in the past.

I'm such a skeptic! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Many valid points posted above. However, let us not forget that what almost always defines an 'attack' is not so much what is said (and how it is said), but rather what is perceived at the receiving/reading end of any given post.

I dont think that its possible to completely define what constitutes an 'attack'. There are many 'gray area' situations where it is very much an issue of context, who says/posts what to whom, etc. etc. etc.

------------------
Gaucho100K

[This message has been edited by Gaucho100K (edited 08-01-2003).]

I'd like to thank those candidates for taking time to answer the first question that I threw out this week.

12 out of the 42 candidates isn't that great, but it does show who reads this Forum! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Speaking for myself, having read alot of FlyerTalk over the years and seeing how the candidates post and act, I initially felt I could make a decent judgement on all the candidates to make my choice. The recent days have proven this wrong. My vote (and some other FTers I have communicated with) will be decided by a person's "FT history", their platform, and how they particpate during this "campaign" period. For me, the first will carry much more weight, but I'm begining to realize that the latter two are begining to show a different side of some candidates. Again, this is just my opinion.

I still encourage the other 30 candidates to add their comments/thoughts/ideas even after I post my "Question 2" this weekend(that's right... get excited!). http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by chexfan (edited 08-01-2003).]

Some interesting answers from all our candidates, thank you for your time. As a member, I am concerned with the current status of Flyertalk. Having just got off the phone with another long-time member of Flyertalk, he informed me that a lot of knowledgeable and contributing members of Flyertalk has reduced their visits here because they tend to gather in some private/undisclosed websites where they can discuss about real substances for miles/travel as opposed to being flamed or participate in irrelevant conversations.

It occurs to me, whether there is ultimately personal attack or not as no one seems to be able to provide a universally acceptable definition, the behaviors which are very uncourteous or rude are simply not warranted in a well reputated site like this one. Some people may find calling someone 'stupid', 'sick' or 'idiot' without any basis whatsoever does not constitutes a personal attack. Some think it is. I ask myself, whether it is or not, is this ultimately acceptable on Flyertalk? It seems to me if this is acceptable, then I think I am in the wrong place. These words are not part of my vocaburary when speaking in a public and it offends me when it is being used against me or anybody else. I often stand up for members being attacked unwarrantedly by trying to ease the tension or have the moderator intervene as quickly as possible. Of course, that puts me on the radar screen of some bullies [and yes they do exist here]. Seeing how some long-time and senior FTers that I know have started to reduce their visits here and learning that they prefer to converge elsewhere becasue they too, are tired of this growing problem at Flyertalk that is members starting to treat each other very uncourteously, I am about to stop visiting some of the forums that I used to visit a lot. I don't think I have much a choice because I don't want to get into these types of irrelevant conversations and there is no efficient or effective way to deal with these attacks against you. What happens is if the forum is moderated, the moderator will intervene and maybe close the thread. But by closing the thread, the bully doesn't go away, he/she simply tries to pick on you elsewhere. Repetitive offenses are just met with repetitive warnings and/or closure of thread. No concrete or established protcol exists to deal with them.

So I'd like to propose this and see how the candidates think: Say if a member has received 3 warnings on 3 separate occasions from at least 2 different moderators, then he/she will receive a timeout of say 1 month. Then the member is allowed back after that. But if the same things keep happening, after another 3 warnings, the member will receive a longer time-out, say 6 months. Finally, if the behavior really doesn't change, it should be permanent. The problem is this: "Who should be the one issuing the warning?" I don't think a single moderator should have the authority to issue the warning because it could be unfair if it's just a person making the judgement call. Rather, here is what I propose, when a moderator sees a potential infraction, he/she may close the thread/delete post, attempt to resolve the situation peacefully then if in the moderator(s)' view that this person may deserve a warning from Flyertalk, the moderator should forward the suggestion to a Board and have this group of people to look into the case and by votes of simple majority, the Board decides whether the infraction deserves a warning or not. Sort like a Justice committee sort to speak. The Board could be any 3 to 7 people, maybe some are TalkBoard and/or TalkTeam members and they rotate once in a while, randomly. I think this would give Flyertalk an established, effective and fair of dealing with offenders who think they can get away with being intentionally uncourteous or rude if not downright threatening to other members. I honestly think Flyertalk needs this or we will keep losing members, if not too many already.

Please consider this and comment. Thank you.

Gaucho hit the nail on the head:

If an attack is perceived, an attack has occurred--someone has been hurt and a resolution needs to be found. True maturity and graciousness include the ability to determine how one's actions/words are received--not just how they were intended. That ability separates the men/women from the boys/girls. (If you don't understand this statement, read all of Rudi's posts, slowly and carefully and then reflect for a month or so.) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

When I perceive an offense, I always e-mail the person who I perceive has crossed the line with me and then go from there. If I get a hateful and/or defensive response to my e-mail, that person goes on my ignore forever list. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

If I receive a considered, intelligent, thoughtful response, that person goes on my cool FlyerTalk--possible friend list. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Interestingly enough, I see some folks running for TalkBoard who have fallen into my ignore forever category, and none who have fallen into the possible friend category. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif

Please note, that that is not to say, in any way, shape or form that everyone running for TB falls into the ignore forever category--most of them are wonderful folks who are far too classy to ever (even untentionally) offend anyone. Now that is a very amazing goal to achieve. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 08-06-2003).]

Gaucho .. let this be a lesson for you. You have 3 weeks to do something NICE and get into Punki's "possible friend" category. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Wait a minute there, Ozstamps, Gaucho, is already in my would be my favorite boyfriend, if I were single and 30 years younger group. Gaucho is a serious cutie and he has wonderful manners. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif He is almost as high on my list as those other cutie pie FT boys who have become my cyber sons. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Lordy, Lordy, these FT bloodlines do become complicated. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Ok, OK .. well there is possibly one of your votes spoken for. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Now as the recently appointed President of the avek00 Fan Club by that Candidate, could I please ask a favour and ..................... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif