Time to re-task forums for discussion of companies rather than their FF programs?
 

Several TalkBoard members have suggested that it may be time to change the stated mission of the Miles & Points forums on FlyerTalk. The current subtitle of Miles & Points is "These topics are all about frequent flyer programs - and only frequent flyer programs". Members tend to ignore that statement and post topics related to the travel company, whether or not the topics are related to points earning and redemption.

Although this idea surfaced recently in the context of discussions of possible new forums for Spirit, RyanAir, and EasyJet, I'd like to set the issue of forum creation aside for the moment and focus on the overall mission of forums in this thread. If there is a re-tasking, any new forum decisions can then be made in the new context.

Let's discuss the re-tasking options and pros and cons here, keeping in mind our common objective of giving FT members what they want the way they want it. To get the discussion started, here's what I posted 3 days ago:

No big objection here, but don't see any big need either. It's pretty obvious that topics about airlines/hotels go in those forums.

IMO it's obvious to those who are very familiar with FT or have been around here for a while, but the titles of these fora don't describe their mission or their contents very well. Recently I've seen lots of apologetic posts by newbies questioning where they can ask more general questions about particular airlines, hotel chains/families, etc. The less unnecessary ambiguity there is about what's appropriate for some forum, the more welcoming FT will seem.

It's not, actually.

Looking back at the threads on Spirit and RyanAir just for the purposes of framing this discussion, it's being argued by some that discussion of these airlines and their programs belongs in Budget Travel rather than in the Airlines/FFP area because that's what's in the sub-description of those forums.

There could come a time when an airline comes along with a value proposition such that there really isn't a FFP in place or one worth discussing BUT in itself is an airline that FTers want to discuss. Where would *that* discussion go?

That said, I've made my opinion (so far) on this pretty clear and I think it's time for people not on the TalkBoard to talk so I can see whether or not my opinion changes during that time -- or perhaps is altered enough to change what I think would be the preferred way to address this.

I've long thought this would be the way FlyerTalk would evolve, and I'm glad to see the discussion is actually coming to a head now. Interested to see perspectives on this, but as of now, I would vote in favor of a well-thought-out change to this effect.

One aspect I'd like to see discussion on: how to handle multi-airline programs that are currently discussed in a single forum, like the Miles & More group of airlines.

If it's not broken, don't fix it. The LH group and FB seem wot work well as they are currently structured, so I don't see a compelling reason to consider changing this, although there's not a strong reason to re-organize along airline lines either.

In the case of FB, which I know better, there seem to be enough commonalities due to the FF program to keep AF and KLM as subfora of FB, even though there are important differences such as IFC on a few AF flights and an IFC lounge at CDG versus only WBC and single (schengen and nonschengen) lounges at AMS or premium economy as a separate cabin on AF versus Economy Comfort seats on KLM as their Y+ offering.

Exactly. I'm new enough to FT to remember what it was like to think as a newbie. I was honestly confused the first couple of times when I wanted to ask a general question about an airline. I finally saw that enough other people were ignoring the categorization that I felt comfortable doing so as well. However, I did spend time looking around and it was very cognitively dissonant.

For the record, FB has subfora for KL and AF (not KQ, UX, RO, or SB). M&M has a subforum for only LX (not LO, OS, SN, JP, OU, LG, or 4U). MP has subfora for UA and CO (now locked for new posts), but not CM.

I'd say they should remain grouped as is for now. Deciding which airlines would qualify for either subfora or being broken out altogether seems like it should be a separate decision. It is definitely one to consider in parallel, but it seems like it is a decision that can be taken with or without the decision to rename the fora from FFPs to airlines.

Warning, I'm probably broaching a different (but related) decision/brainstorming here.

I'd recommend that everyone reading this topic head over to the front page and just look at it a while and think about how the fora are arranged and the categories and subcategories. (It'd probably be most helpful for coming up with original and creative ideas if you did that before reading the rest of my post.) I'm realizing that there seems to be a lot of disconnect between actual forum content and the way things are labeled and categorized. I have the glimmerings of a re-organization in my mind that would make few substantial changes in the sense that old timers would have no difficulty finding the same forums with a blindfold on, but which would make it far more intuitive and logical for someone trying to find a forum for the first time. However, before I post a rough draft, I'd better sleep on it.

On second thought, there's no reason but pride to present a very, very rough first draft. Basically this very rough draft would pull most of the subcategories of Miles & Points back a hierarchy level out from under Miles & Points. This would cause them to more accurately reflect the fact that the majority of their threads deal with travel on the airline, sleeping with the hotel, or renting a car, rather than necessarily talking solely about the loyalty program. Furthermore, it would make the front page more powerful by exposing each airline/hotel. (It would, however, make it more overwhelming for newbies. That should be a separate decision as I'm sure IB/vbulletin could make top level categories show collapsed on the front page if that would be better for clutter sake.)

Alternatively, in view of the orphan that MilesBuzz has become (and rightly so: it was a conglomeration of Manufactured Spend and Credit Cards and random promos and newbie questions--a combo that didn't belong together. I'm glad they were separated.), perhaps it should be converted to a Newbie Question forum, moved to the very top as a general introduction forum that would include policy stickies and newbie lounge threads and just a general and friendly introduction to FT. Then MR Deals and Hotel Deals could either be put under a Deals category (a bit OCD, IMHO, for just two fora; but it does better represent the way that I browse FT) or they could headline the newly named Airline and Hotel sections, which would probably make more sense for most people. S.P.A.M. would then fit very logically into "Other Loyalty Programs". So that alternative would look something like this:
ETA: One final idea. Split MilesBuzz into the Newbie/Welcome (as done in my second organization above) and a forum that retains the name MilesBuzz. Have MilesBuzz headline a Deals category that would include MR Deals and Hotel Deals. MilesBuzz would then become a place matching its description for the first time in many, many years: "Discussion of the latest frequent flyer & hotel program buzz...only." Basically it would become a place to discuss the mega promos like 36 Avios/$ Nordstrom, 30 WN/$ Sears, 25k Delta Skymall, the amazing Choice hotel per stay promos, etc, etc. It could also host discussions of sweeping changes that may be FFP-specific, but that affect all FFPs. (Obviously if you include the "sweeping changes" part, it becomes less applicable under the Deals category.)

Sorry, lots of random thoughts above. It is 2 am. I hope the above can serve as fodder for inspiration.

My most creative work is done at 2am. :) Of course, I generally find I need to copyedit that work the next day when I'm coherent. ;)

I'll be mostly out of cell coverage for the next few days as I traverse the Trans-Labrador Highway, so I'll need to revisit and comment on this after arriving back in civilization.

For some yes but for others no. I posted this over in the private TB forum

And with this, i would also include the hotel programs as they are also listed under their loyalty program vs the hotel brand name

If we're potentially redoing airline forum names for the reasons mentioned, then hotels should also be included in the name re-org. Hans probably would have had to stay awake until 2:30am to get those included in his list :D

Cheers.

I hope Hans isn't suggesting that we deviate from the traditional alphabetical order listing for airlines and hotels. UA before AA? I would think not, at least unless/before AA becomes US.

No. Was just doing etc, etc to condense. Should have done them alphabetically. The biggest question is nomenclature, followed closely by structure.

I personally think that there needs to be an Airlines forum and a FFP forum (maybe by slotting the airline in the proper slot under Global Airline Alliances?)

I'm mainly in the AC forum, and there are a lot of threads about AC and not AC's FFP. To me, it would seem that the AC FFP forum is the best place to post about AC, even if it's not about the FFP. This has made the forum pretty messy, especially since AC has subcarriers such as ACX and ACR.

As many topics overlap or have FF program as of many aspects, I think there needs to be just one forum for both the airline and its FFer program.

IMO both changing the forum names to just the airline names and a reorganization similar to what Hans posted would make FT a more friendly place for new members.

Long overdue change that ought to be done asap, imho. ^

+1

You should have found a hotel prior to 2:00 AM :D.

On a more serious vein, I think that must have been a good time to contemplate improvements for forum nomenclature (and adding the Newbie Forum), because it seems to be quite nicely done. Thanks for sharing.

While I am generally inclined to agree that the forum naming focus on the airline and its FFP rather than simply the FFP, there does remain the problem of the FFPs which serve more than one airline - e.g. Flying Blue and Miles and More. Something needs to be done to ensure that discussion of their programs don't get split into multiple forums as the information is relevant to all airlines which use those FFPs.

In the case of FB, there are already subfora for AF and KLM which are carriers that aren't terribly different in size or the extent of their international networks.

IIRC, the LH forum has a subforum for LX but not for other carriers that are part of the FF program. However, in this case, LH is clearly the dominant entity with LX next and several other carriers. Having those other carriers discussed among the LH threads doesn't seem to cause major problems, although obviously a sub forum for these other carriers could be created under the current FT organization in terms of FF programs.

I could see new forum names something like "LH Family Airlines, including LX" and simply "AF and KLM" and a continuation of their current internal structure with subforums.

Yes, that would be a reasonable solution - the same structure as today but with labels that conform to the way things are working. I would remind the re-organizers that Kenya Airways is also Flying Blue. I think there could be direct reference to the FFP e.g. AF, KLM and all things Flying Blue, or Miles and More family airlines, LH, LX, LO, etc.)

I'd like to see something like this

List all of the airlines alphabetically by name vs program in the forum-jump menu and if the airline in question is a sub-forum of a larger airline (i.e. LX is part of LH), the forum-jump menu takes you directly to the sub-forum airline which in turn is still listed as a sub-forum of the larger airline as it is now

Especially in light of the issues concerning the 787, would it be possible to include in this proposed 'restructuring' fora particular to Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, Embraer, etc. where common issues regarding a particular manufacturer or airframe could be discussed regardless of who the operating carrier is?

What you are proposing here would be the creation of new fora, rather than the renaming of existing fora. While I agree that there are enough 787 issues to justify a thread on that particular airframe as it does impact service and passenger decisions, is there really enough happening on all of the others to justify 4+ fora? There are other websites which are devoted to the discussion of the technical aspect of aircraft which are far better suited to in-depth discussions of airframes. I personally don't see the need for Flyertalk to replicate those websites. Flyertalk should stick to its core focus of providing information which is valuable to frequent (and sometimes, not-so-frequent) travelers.

I basically agree, as much as I might like personally to see a place on FT to discuss aircraft issues.

Note that there are a number of threads discussing the 787 in TravelBuzz as well as under the fora of specific airlines that have ordered the 787. However, much of the material in the airline fora focuses on which seats to select and the routes expected to be served by the 787. The stuff in TravelBuzz is likely to be what the person wants, although perhaps there might be an argument for asking the mod(s) of that forum to merge similar threads and/or even create a sticky or wiki about the 787's issues.

+1

+1

UA forum...proposal for MP Buzz split
 

LaserSailor here...first time I'm posting to TalkBoard

I moderate two other non-airlines Boards, so I have some experience in Board Mgt.

The UA Mileage Plus Forum, in my humble opinion, has been degraded into a bash UA crowd which is perfectly summarized by a recent poster, in a promptly locked thread. If I am not mistaken, this is the most active Miles Forum on FT.

The UA/CO merger meant leaner benefits for all and most of us don't like it, that's human nature. However, after 12 months its time to move on.

I don't see the crowd letting go of this Forum and it interferes with the ability to get to the useful info on MP in the Forum. I suggest you consider splitting the MP forum into a UA Buzz Sub-forum for discussion of operations, management, complaints etc.

. I think the forum would be better served with the sub-forum structure where Mods coud just keep the opinions and whining in the Buzz side, and useful posts on the MP side.

You are proposing a bifurcation into rants and raves in one subforum and just the facts in the other. Although this has never been done for a travel company forum, it is essentially what our Community Director did with Travel Safety and Security. The problem is the transitional and ongoing workload for the moderators. Our CD would need to be reasonably sure that the workload would be manageable and not a multiple of what it would have been without the split. Therefore this sort of change IMHO should be debated and designed by the moderators and the CD rather than just by the TalkBoard.

Thanks for bringing up this idea. You might want to PM it to the UA forum moderators to kick around on their own.

Thanks! I will redirect to the Mods for digestion.

Apologise if I have mis-used TB for this, I did read the overview and could not find if it was/was not appropriate to suggest here.

On managing the workload - on our Sailing Board we created two Pubs (analogous to Buzz) - one where P/S/R (the three deadly workplace topics) was allowed and one where it was not.

Load was simply enforced with one warning, followed by ban - which made it self moderating in about one week.

To be honest, I might actually read the United forum if something like this were implemented.

It gets really, really old to have 99 posts of "Changes You Will Like" and "$mi$ek" for every useful post with content. The UA forum was always super-busy and hard to keep up with, but now it's gotten to the point where the volume is so high and the signal-to-noise ratio is so low that it's just not worth reading anymore, even occasionally, except for a few specific threads I subscribe to. I get all of my United news from friends who fly United either via conversations with them or their posts on Facebook.

Gotta say I'd not be in favor or subdividing any airline forum on this basis never mind one of the busiest as not only would it not be harder for newer members to distinguish between the two but it forces members to read both halves to gauge how or if the fact is to them a good or not so good thing which is IMHO an unnecessary duplication.

Just MHO and YMMV.

I have submitted the TB proposal to one of the UA MP moderators per your suggestion.

My sentiments are echoed in the post above...trying not to sound like a whiny 5 year old threatening to pick up my marbles and go home....

To bring some youth (in terms of post count :p) into the discussion, I agree that the forum names, as they currently are, are misleading. The large number of threads that are moved by mods from TravelBuzz or wherever into the appropriate airline forum is a testament to the fact that not everyone (especially newer members) immediately figures out that the general topics about a particular airline go in that airline's FFP forum. Renaming these fora to make that more obvious seems like an easy fix that will not really change anything from how it is already being done. :)

Personally, I like goalie's idea for the new names: "Airline Name (and all things <FFP Name>)" ^

-S

Welcome to FT & thanks for the input.

My guess is we'll be getting to this either before end or month or in September when everyone's back from summer vacations.

Cheers.

Bumping this up for public input as we're discussing the topic in the private forum.

The reason for the possible renaming (or editing) of airline/hotel forum names is that FT has evolved & the forums, besides discussing the FF programs, also discuss many other things such as property reviews, calibre (or lack thereof!) of drinks in airline lounges, etc, etc, so this would be a better reflection.

Also, for those checking in on mobile devices, tablets, it wouldn't take up as much real estate.

So, pros/cons fellow FTers?

Cheers.

I think this is a realignment whose time has come but think it couldn't hurt to consider other organizational adjustments at the same time. For example I'd like to see all hotel topics under one heading including "Luxury Hotels" and "Hotel Deals" as it just seems intuitive to me to group them together instead of having them separate as at present. Just MHO.

One serious thing to note is that changing the forum name completely destroys any search engine record it has, ie anyone searching a term in google will not be getting a valid link. Re-indexing FT would take months.

Actually we're checking w/ IB on this right now. One thought is that it's an edit vs. a whole renaming. Since some forums have had name changes & it hasn't seemed to cause a break so far, it may or may not be an issue.

If it is, then we're stuck w/ it the way it is. If it isn't, then odds are we would move forward. For one thing, it would make it easier for those who access FT on mobile devices & tablets; for the other, it would more accurately reflect how the forums operate.

Cheers.

It did cause dead links. Thus, we have a new system that IB trialed on the last name change that appears to have been satisfactory.

Cool - thanks for the update!

Cheers.