Thank you moderator, continued...
 

The "Thank You Moderator..." thread below is broken (the whole site seems to have been having strange technical problems lately)...now the thread itself won't open up and my reply within it won't "take" (responds with weird "the site may be full" error messages), so here is my response after clacko at about # 23 or so:

I do not believe that this "experiment" is positive step.

Frankly, if people, answered someone’s Air China post in UA, because as UA flyers they had experience in the region, then GREAT! Everyone wins.

How is it better to force the question into Air China "Siberia" where it goes unanswered?

If you are reading the UA board and see a question on Air China and don't care about it, then skip over it and SO WHAT!

BTW, I have never blamed the moderators for enforcing the rules (although I find moving the discussion of these issues to Suggestion "Siberia" a little extreme); nor do I blame the powers that be here for trying new things; but I don't think this rule/change/policy works better then the old policy of not moving/monitoring posts that are "off topic" and letting the free market prevail.

While it may sound lazy to say that having to go to multiple boards is “less convenient”, as a practical matter, it isn’t about me and my own laziness or lack thereof, but about the majority of people. Less “convenience” = less traffic = less “value”, and the current site offers less "value" TO ME by spreading posts so widely that they get less traction, and I and evidentially many others think this is a worse result, and not a better one.

Now, this has nothing to do with the Bill of Rights or Hitler, and isn’t something that rises to the level of an impeachable offense, but IMO it is a step in the wrong direction, and so I speak out for what I believe is a better direction, about which I acknowledge there are legitimate arguments on both sides.

Is there a compromise...evolution from here

Discussion on this is for Suggestions, not MilesBuzz. There are several active topics there, and that is where it will continue.

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[email protected]
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Someone stop me if I am out of line or just repeating the same old same old, but I didn't read the "original" thread.

Geez, am I the only one reading the first post in this thread and thinking "ingrate"? Ok, maybe that is too strong and harsh, but I do not see how you speak for the "majority".

Flyertalk offers plenty of "value" to ME. In fact, as a long time lurker, it offers more value to ME if I don't have to read misplaced posts that are completely unrelated to the forum name just because someone was too LAZY or SELFISH to post in the right forum in the first place. If posting in "siberia" is against someone's religion, then go to the rec.travel newsgroups and see if things are any better over there. Better yet, just call a random person out of the phone book and see if they have an answer to your question. Essentially, I find having to read clearly misplaced posts as invasive as getting a call from a complete stranger. Sure, I can skip a thread here and there, but that means skipping half the threads sometimes.

[BTW, thank you moderator1 for moving this thread out of MileBuzz]

I have been unavailable for most of the day, so I have not had the chance to check to see what was going on with this thread. In the original posting of this topic (which now seems to have vanished) I asked a very simple question. Of course now that the original topic has vanished I have 2 very simple questions.
Question #1 I think a lot of people are not upset with the whole moderator issue. I am sure we all know there are times when people say things to intentionally hurt people. So on occasions such as that, then of course a moderator should step in (of course as civilized humans, one would think we could do this on our own.) I think the big problem here is that people come to flyer talk to give advice or have questions answered. You as moderators should know that a vast majority of the forums hardly ever get entered. Milesbuzz and a few others are the most frequented by members of flyertalk. If someone has a question about some something and it should be placed somewhere other than milesbuzz, What are the chances the question will be answered...or even read for that matter? If we post in milesbuzz we are sure to get our question read and more than likely read. While you see this as being defiant, I see this as out attempt at getting an answer. I mean...isnt flyertalk a place where we try to help each other out? I know from a posting I made...(in a section I am sure nobody visits) that I will never get an answer. Had I been bold and posted it in milesbuzz I probably would have had some kind of answer by now...before it was shut down. Can't you see the problem? I don't think people are as upset about the moderators being around, but at the fact that we can not post things in an area that will give it the attention it needs.
Question #2
Why is the original thread missing??

Thank you!!

Mileagerunner, I'm not sure what you think I'm ungrateful about?

I have not criticized the moderators for enforcing the policies; I just don't think the policies themselves are a positive step.

Nor have I been anything but supportive of the "powers that be" for trying new things.

If you think expressing my opinion on this is wrong, I'm sorry, but to me that's part of what participating in a community is about: caring and trying to improve things.

In addition, I have never attempted to speak for others, although it is clear that many others agree...at one point by a 2:1 majority, but as I have mentioned previously, I suspect people are pretty evenly divided here.

I also suspect that time will show that there are now too many boards, and some consolidation will occur in the future.

Given that people are probably pretty divided on seemingly "religious" grounds – comparing the “invasion” between intrusive telemarketer calls at home with “off-topic” threads in an opt-in bulletin board is a good example -- does anyone have any suggestions for alternatives/compromises vs. black and white old vs. new arguments?

Separately, ever happened to this original thread?

nologic: While I agree with what you are saying in your posts - see my own post in http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum73/HTML/000277.html - you might want to consider toning it down a little. For examole, the very title of this thread is sarcastic. If you want people to hear what you are saying, please say it in a civil and polite manner.

I personally know Moderator1. He happens to be a great guy, and extremely intelligent. He's also spending a lot of time (and he doesn't have a whole lot of free time) volunteering for FT. I don't like it that you're singling him out for criticism.

That doesn't mean there's not a problem with the organization on the boards. But can you come up with a way of saying how you feel about the problems with the board organization without attacking people?

dgolds,

Thanks for the feedback. I am disturbed by your reaction, because I have not wanted to attack anyone and feel that I have tried hard to not attack people. Indeed, I felt I was just attacked by mileagerunner, and I think I have defended the moderators by acknowledging that they are enforcing the policies as charged and there’s nothing wrong with that...and I an suggesting that the policies aren't ideal?

Moderators, have I criticized you guys personally here?

I am trying to be sensitive about attacking anyone personally, because I think people are trying their best to contribute.

What is it about my comments that you feel cross that line?

nologic: The sarcastic title of the thread. The references to Hitler Youth and the Bill of Rights, which are being used (very impolitely, I think) to beat the Moderators over the head in another thread. The sarcastic reference to "Siberia" in your post. (It's not "Siberia," it's "a forum that takes 6 clicks to navigate to from a locked thread.")

None of the above add anything to the content of your post in support of your (otherwise very clear) arguments.

nologic, my apologies if you felt you were attacked by me. I was not trying to offend you. I was however peeved by the presentation of your opinion (see dgolds' post). My first immediate reaction to your post was that it seemed unnecessarily harsh (especially as Randy offers this as a free service); it seemed to be an escalation of earlier posts you had already made without adding anything new (the fact you started a new thread, which we know is not your fault as it the original was moved, seemed excessive at the time as well). I'm simply thankful that FT exists, and I guess that I will be my last word on this entire subject.

dgolds,

You suggest that the following actions by me “crossed the line” into personal attacks or otherwise. Please let me respond:

1. The sarcastic title of the thread.

I did not make up this title, and it wasn’t sarcastic when it was created by whomever...it was a continuation of a thread which someone else started legitimately thanking the moderators for their efforts, and I was posting as post number 24 to this thread, and when I went to submit, boom I got an error message and then when I back-clicked and the whole thread disappeared, I re-opened it...which I tried to explain in the intro to my first post above. I can see how you thought I was being sarcastic with a tread topic thanking the moderators, and then not actually thanking them, but that wasn't what I was doing.

2. The references to Hitler Youth and the Bill of Rights, which are being used (very impolitely, I think) to beat the Moderators over the head in another thread.

I have never made any such reference and in fact have tried to distance myself from those remarks by saying: "Now, this has nothing to do with the Bill of Rights or Hitler, and isn’t something that rises to the level of an impeachable offense, but IMO it is a step in the wrong direction."

In another thread, admittedly, I did just suggest in a post prior to this one a moment ago that one of the reasons these topics may be getting so over-heated is because the issues of free speech/censorship are emotional for many. That probably explains why some people have made the Hitler and other analogies...because they felt censored and were probably being dramatic in their response for effect.

I personally think most of those analogies made by others are a bit much, but it shows how hurt/attacked/affected many people are by this situation...I think we all have to keep in mind that sometimes short phrases can be exaggerated in their intent and interpretation (so all parties need to be careful, myself included).

3. The sarcastic reference to "Siberia" in your post. (It's not "Siberia," it's "a forum that takes 6 clicks to navigate to from a locked thread.").

I am guilty here. If this analogy to Siberia is perceived as mean spirited or otherwise as a personal attack, then rope me up. Upon reflection, I still think the analogy to Siberia is appropriate: I think of Siberia as a distant land from which someone would never, or rarely be heard. That is what I think happens when threads get moved to remote/less-trafficked parts of the site. This is my basic point, and I would think having a catchy title which symbolizes my message would be appropriate?

4. None of the above adds anything to the content of your post in support of your (otherwise very clear) arguments.

Thank you for the feedback. I really do not mean or intend to attack anyone; my purpose with these threads/comments is to present ideas and solicit feedback on how to improve the user experience on FT.


[This message has been edited by nologic (edited 08-16-2001).]

mileagerunner,

Thanks for responding...

I felt attacked with the ingrate comment, so it's nice to know you didn't mean it.

As you now know, I didn't really start this thread.

Without seeing posts number 21-23, it's hard to see what I was responding to...but something there triggered my remarks.

You said: “My first immediate reaction to your post was that it seemed unnecessarily harsh (especially as Randy offers this as a free service).”

I guess there’s something about my tone that you didn’t like. I actually said in that post: “BTW, I have never blamed the moderators for enforcing the rules (although I find moving the discussion of these issues to Suggestion "Siberia" a little extreme); nor do I blame the powers that be here for trying new things.” My sense is that Randy wants feedback. I have tried to “applaud” his initiative to try new things and not attack him or anyone else for doing anything other than trying to improve this site.

Even my very first Siberia post…which probably kicked this whole thing off said: “I don't question anyone's intentions -- I am sure that both those that designed the new site and those that enforce it are only trying to make this world a better place -- but I just don’t get it: are we really better off this way?”

I probably have responded too much here, to the point where my comments may have little additional purpose, so that's a good point...although I am responding to points/arguments made by others and am pretty

This will be one of the last posts I make here. Brief was my time here on flyertalk, but I just got an email from someone who said that some of my posts did not enhance or contribute to flyertalk. I Guess I am being misunderstood, because if any of you really knew me, you would know I would never be mean intentionally. So knowing someone think I am not contributing in a positive way really bothers me.
I sincerly hope that the moderator situation works itself out. Also, try to be nice to each other. Its better that way!!
Thanks.

PG,

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif.

NL

nologic: You asked what I thought crossed the line. I told you. And I'm not the only one here who thought it was questionable.

Easy solution. Edit out the references to Hitler Youth, Bill of Rights and Siberia in your original post. They only serve to detract form your good arguments and throw flame on the fire. Too late to change the thread title, but you could amend your first post, saying that you didn't intend for it to be sarcastic, just a continuation of something someone already started.

dgolds,

Frankly, in light of the what seemed clear misunderstandings by you that I highlighted, this response seems really out of left field and insulting.

I made no personal refernces to Hitler or anything like that except to distance myself from such comments made by others...the topic thread title had nothing to do with me and was created by others...and siberia is siberia, so if you have a problem with that, then so be it.

But, if upon reviewing the above facts you still have a problem, then I guess there's nothing I or anyone can do with it or your own issues.