SkyTeam Falling Further Behind Star
 

Star Alliance has just added three new airlines to its already impressive roster: Asiana, LOT and Spanair. SkyTeam keeps falling further back in the alliance game, IMO.

Spanair would have been a great codeshare partner for DL and AeroMexico. Codeshares to various Spanair destinations could have been possible from the feed from DL's BCN and MAD flights as well as AM flights to MAD.

Hopefully. something will come of the speculation about TG and/or JA joining SkyTeam.

Am I correct in assuming that similar to SkyTeam, any flight on a * member carrier counts towards elite status?

Miles earned on both *A and OW are elite qualifying...

DL is really in a lousy position as far as alliances, especially in Asia, are concerned. Air China was suppossed to be signed up shortly, but last weeks crash put them off again. KE is a full member again, but they have also had safety problems in the past.

At the same time, the lack of recognition in using other partner airlines' lounges for those less that DL Plat. is embarrassing. Both OW and *A give lounge priviledges to int'l flights on partners to 2nd tier members and not just their top members.

Since Spainair is controlloed by SAS (a Star member), it wouldn't make sense for them to join other alliances than Star.

I agree that SkyTeam need to add some more Asian members. Thai or JAL would be great.
Also the South Pacific would be great, but which airlines are left there?
A partner in South American could be beneficial, so you do more inter continent flights.

What's up with SkyTeam's tendency to associate with/attract the world's most dangerous carriers? SU, KE, and CI all in one alliance??? What the hell was DL/AF thinking?!

It appears SkyTeam is taking a "Wings" approach: do nothing but interline the carriers you already have and hope to god that there'll still be someone left once you're done with that. One(HeathroW)orld seems to be taking that approach as well. Star is grab-now-ask-later, and it's gotten some **** good carriers with very few mistakes in between as a result.

Why is there so much speculation for TG in SkyTeam. True that it's the one alliance where they'll actually be NEEDED and held in highest regard, as opposed to being second-rate in Star; but LH is not going to let them go quietly, and from the looks of it... they'd rather be 2nd rate in a great alliance than worshipped in a pitiful one.

One positive note for SkyTeam out of this is that Star just set a precedent for having members at both NRT and ICN. If SkyTeam really can woo JAL, which I hope/doubt they can, then that'd be great for the alliance.


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Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
~ConcordeBoy

It is very sad ... DL was all set with SQ and SR but then AF insisted that it all end. SQ reluctantly joined Star ... TG is not viable in Star with SQ there, hence the repeated rumours. Now that ANA has joined Star, it means JAL must join Oneworld or Skyteam. They have close ties to AA, giving Skyteam the edge (and KE hates JAL, wonder if KE has blackball rights?). Right now it looks like JAL and ANZ will join Oneworld, which would make Oneworld far better than Skyteam or Star in coverage. Quite frankly Skyteam's time has come and gone, it just isn't viable. Very sad, and it came close, but in the current form it just does not work as a world-wide alliance. It is fine for Europe and NA, but there it ends. The irony is that DL was ahead of the curve, and now is left in the dust. Best I can tell (I don't have any inside info) it isn't Delta's fault, they were the victims of the unreasonable actions and machinations of others. But the damage is telling, this year I am spending $100K on travel with AA that would have been on DL, but for the shambles that is Skyteam. And I have to say that I am getting better service for it.

Out of curiousity, when was Skyteam even considered to be close to *A or OW? I have always considered it to be a second tier alliance.

[This message has been edited by Rssrsvp (edited 06-02-2002).]

SkyTeam has never been close to the others either in terms of capability or in terms of seamless service. But we can always keep hoping, can't we?



[This message has been edited by RobertS975 (edited 06-02-2002).]

Robert: Faith and Charity are on my agenda, too, when life is quieter and I'm better off.

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"Service" should be a noun, not a verb.
Delta Flyers' Guide

Before Oneworld and Skyteam existed there was an "almost" Skyteam constructed by DL/SQ/SR with many of the alliance characteristics (this was circa 1995). That alliance was very effective though it was informal (and didn't include base miles on other carriers). Skyteam has been downhill ever since, though SQ is unhappy with Star and there is some chance it will quit Star and join Skyteam (no chance to join Oneworld due to CX). Skyteam with two changes -- adding JAL and SQ -- would become a very powerful and maybe even dominant alliance. And DL keeps the rumour of buying CO alive, maybe it will happen (which might pick up VS codeshares ... once again ... DL had VS as a partner in 1995, also!).

number_6:

Step 1: Delta Buys Continental (or vice versa, if that's how it has to be)

Step 2: JFK closed in favor of EWR; CLE closed in favor of CVG; DFW closed in favor of IAH

Step 3: DAL + CAL = DAL - $2 billion

Step 4: Duh?

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"Service" should be a noun, not a verb.
Delta Flyers' Guide

Number 6, I agree that ST can turn things around dramatically in a hurry. I haven't heard the SQ rumors previous to your post. Most rumors centered on Thai leaving to join ST.

And that's nothing to sneeze at, Thai is no joke! With no governmental hassle (of which I can see none impending); and the proper feed, retiming, and perhaps ATI... SkyTeam could QUICKLY become a force in Asia. They need to forget and get as far away as possible from CI. Having CZ positioned to grant access to mainland China wouldnt hurt at all. TG for int'l, CZ for intra-Asia. That'd be sweet.

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Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
~ConcordeBoy

OneHeathroWorld is by far the WORST alliance for lack of seamless service in existence. Not to mention $#!tty FFP integration.

If you compare their fact sheets, for being a year younger and 2 carriers smaller; SkyTeam has actually done a remarkable job of nipping at OneWorld's heels. I think the gap is widening though http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

http://skyteam.com/EN/aboutSkyteam/doc/fact_sheet.doc

http://www.oneworld.com/pressroom/se...s/F000b501.doc

[This message has been edited by ConcordeBoy (edited 06-02-2002).]

You do a good job of making SQ look like a victim.... what REALLY went down was the fact that SQ wanted to purchase more of a stake/interests in DL than the USA gov't was comfortable with. So they high-tailed to other partnerships. DL (wisely!) jilted SR for AF, which proved to be the best decision in the longrun.

The Prime Minister of Thailand doesn't agree with you, he has been quoted repeatedly in the press with critical comments about TG. Of course having a TG plane explode shortly before he was to board it might affect his comments. Mr Thaksin made clear his feelings in May when he said the airline "sucks" and that if he had any choice he would not fly with it. The prime minister slammed Thai Airways International for its high ticket prices, uncomfortable seats and poor service.

The airline's top executive agreed with him, saying improvement were needed.

On second thought, that should put them at the top of Skyteam's list.

I've had two separate set of travel buddies fly TG biz-class twice in the last 5 months and both were crazy about it. They've also flown CX, SQ, and MH... so they know what quality is. I admit that I've never yet flown TG myself, but have great faith in their opinion as we do have similar travel tastes.

As for the exploded TG 737... that's basically another TW800: plane was having a bad day, got a little warm, and just decided to blow up all on its own to end its misery. Um, yeah... not gonna touch that one.

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Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
~ConcordeBoy

None of the airline alliances are truly seamless.

Despite its headstart on oneworld and skyteam, Star Alliance, for example, still does not have an integrated reservations system. Oneworld, in fact, has achieved better systems integration than Star Alliance because of the connections that AA maintains with Sabre. The Sabre people figured out how to patch all the oneworld systems together before Star Alliance even had a plan for their own system's patch.

Oneworld does some basic things quite well:

Lounge Access based on FF level with EXP's getting First Class Lounge Access, Plat's Business Class Lounge, and even Gold's regular club access.

Award redemption: With oneworld awards, one does not need separate awards to travel on more than one oneworld carrier. To many destinations, oneworld awards require less miles than two separate awards, as it the case with most of the other alliances.

Quality of Carriers: AA's has partnered with some of the best carriers in the world. Almost all offer a suite product in first class. Their club facilities are among the best and most prestigious in the world, for example, Cathay's Wing Club in Hong Kong.

Elite Qualifying and Bonus miles: Can be earned on all oneworld carriers.

To be sure, AA works better with some of its partners than others. For example, AA's working relationship with Qantas is much better than its working relationship with BA. But, each partner recognizes and acknowleges on average the elite FF's of the other. I have no problem, for instance, getting into a BA Terrace Club or even First Lounge with my EXP card.

The only thing that is holding oneworld back is the inabiity of AA and BA to codeshare or to coordinate schedules. It would make some connections at Heathrow easier if they could. However, even if they can't, I am not going to start flying through CDG. In my opinion, I would rather tolerate a two to three hour layover and slightly higher fare than AirFrance.

And it never will... because like SkyTeam, reservation system integration was specifically forbidden in the terms of Star's antitrust immunity.

Just out of curiousity, you do realize that this is the DELTA forum dont you?

While FlyerTalkers might not mind the inconvenience at all, in the real world: having to purchase multiple tickets (with restricted FFP options) when competing carriers offer seamless travel/FFP can be quite a deterrent.

Yeah, "only" that... just that small insignificant matter http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif
I guess: not being able to coordinate miles transatlantically, relying on LX to complete your European travel, and having to take United to LAX/SFO every time you'd like to fly CX; dont count right?

Hmm... waiting for hours in a less efficient airport and paying a higher price for it... cant say I agree with ya there buddy http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif



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Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
~ConcordeBoy

Hopefully you trust my tastes as well: I took three domestic (intra-Thai) TG legs in C in April and was very pleased. Two were very short duration of about an hour, the third was about two hours. All were on widebody aircraft, and on one flight I was invited to experience the int'l sleeper seat, which was very impressive. (These domestic flights with 3 class int'l config are sold as two classes). Overall, a very impressive short-haul C experience at a tiny premium to Y (About $290 vs $225 for BKK-CNX-HKT-BKK).

[This message has been edited by andymo99 (edited 06-06-2002).]

I reality, the only real advantage of the alliances is base miles for all. Most carriers interline with each other, many you can get boarding passes for from either UA, DL or AA, none really accept each others tickets without endorsement, few endorse easily with cause (even full fare), none can give you much information about each other, there are no service standards, often times there are reciprocal frequent flyer awards across airlines not in each others alliance, rarely does an alliance partner care much about your alliance status other than checkin or boarding, blah blah blah

I connect and ticket inter alliance and intra alliance all the time and notice no difference. It's nice for me to stay within Skyteam and Star for mileage but that's all I seem to get out of it. I even mix the two alliance carriers one one ticket and use different frequent flyer numbers for the proper respective carriers without problem.

LAOCA, I agree with you. It's all about the base miles, the ability to keep status intact regardless of which destinations one is required to get to. For example, the UA/DL "partnership" is completely useless to the great majority of DeltaManiacs as the miles do not count as base miles. Besides earning base miles, other factors are lounge access and recognition of elite status for checkins and operational upgrades etc.