lewinr

LH has significantly modified their program and I am considering changing to a Skyteam based program. I think other people might be thinking about it too, so I decided to open a discussion on this topic.

Three major questions I think we should discuss:
1. How the network compares in general with Star Alliance.
2. How the alliance benefits (reciprocity, award availability, lounges, etc) compare.
3. How to decide which Skyteam program is the best to join for accruing mileage.

So, let's get started:

1. Network:

I see Skyteam as a very strong network in Europe and for Europe<->North America travel, with Delta (and soon CO/NW) on the US side and Alitalia, AF, Czech (and soon KLM and maybe Aeroflot) on the Europe side.

It does seem weak in Asia, however, with only Korean.

I do most of my flying from Moscow, so having Aeroflot join will be a huge plus (and possibly a great opportunity for mile runs since Aeroflot domestic flights are quite cheap). Most of my flying tends to be to the US/Canada with the odd flight into Europe. So Skyteam works well for me since Delta, AF, Alitalia, Czech (and KLM) all fly to Moscow and connect with most places in the US.


2. Reciprocity:

How well do the SkyTeam members treat each-others elites? In Star-Alliance an airlines own elites are always treated better than the star-gold elites of other airlines, and you are not very likely to get upgraded unless you are flying on the metal of the program in which you are elite. I expect SkyTeam is similar, but are there any areas where it is better/worse?

How reciprocal is lounge access? Can I assume that if I am elite in one Skyteam member that I have access to most F-class lounges of other members?)

How is award availability? Does it differ by program or is it basically the same across the alliance? (I mean, does Delta make more award seats available to SkyMiles members than it makes available to AirFrance Frequence-Plus members?)

Basically, these questions are aimed at understanding one main thing: If I am going to do much of my flying on one member of skyteam, how important is it to join exactly that member's program?


3. How to decide which program is best:

Of course this very much depends on individual requirements. Given that I fly mostly on cheap economy class tickets to the US and Canada, and tend to use my miles for awards to Europe and asia, I need to think about which is best for me. The first question: Is there a SkyTeam comparison chart anywhere similar to BlondeBomber's star-alliance chart?

Since Delta/Alitalia/Czech/AF would be the airlines that I would fly most often (because they fly to Moscow), does it make sense to look mostly at those programs? I guess that will depend on the answers to the reciprocity questions above.

One factor that is important to me and may be important to others is the ability to earn miles using credit cards. I earn alot of Membership Rewards points with Amex in the US, and so Delta's program is quite nice with a 1:1 transfer ratio into Skymiles, AeroMexico, and CO Onepass. So these programs may be best for me. (Although CO is not technically a SkyTeam member yet). Depending on the answers in the "reciprocity" question above, it might mean Delta is the best choice for me, since they are the only one from this list who fly into Moscow. But given all the agonizing screams I heard in the recent past coming from the Delta board due to Delta's changes to SkyMiles, is it still a decent program for someone doing mainly international travel?

I know I am asking alot of questions, but I think many of these questions will be useful for many people looking at Skyteam, so I hope those of you who know something will help. THANKS IN ADVANCE.

Ron

[This message has been edited by lewinr (edited Mar 13, 2004).]

Dovster

How well do the SkyTeam members treat each-others elites?

Each airline will give preference to its own Elite Plus members as opposed to a partner's.

To show how this would work, let's look at Alitalia's preferences vis-a-vis one of its own and a Delta member:

1. Alitalia Elite Plus
2. Delta Elite Plus
3. Alitalia Elite
4. Delta Elite
5. Alitalia general member
6. Delta general member

How reciprocal is lounge access? Can I assume that if I am elite in one Skyteam member that I have access to most F-class lounges of other members?)

Elite membership does not give you lounge access. Only Elite Plus does. Lounge access is available to all Elite Plus members no matter what airline they are with. [i] Paid [/b] membership, such as in Delta's Crown Room Club does not give you access to SkyTeam partner lounges. It does, however, give you access to Continental and NorthWest Lounges when you are flying with them.

How is award availability? Does it differ by program or is it basically the same across the alliance? (I mean, does Delta make more award seats available to SkyMiles members than it makes available to AirFrance Frequence-Plus members?)

As far as I understand, it has the same availabilty. I am in Delta's program and have had good luck in getting award flights on both Air France and Alitalia. Incidentally, to request a reward you always have to ask your own airline -- not the airline you will be flying.


Given that I fly mostly on cheap economy class tickets to the US and Canada, and tend to use my miles for awards to Europe and asia, I need to think about which is best for me.

If that is the case, you would probably want to choose a European airline. They will give you full mileage credit for your deeply discounted tickets, whereas Delta will only give you 50%. (On the other hand, Deleta will give you double mileage if you fly B/E, while the Europeans won't).

I have been told recently that AF offers Elite Plus membership to people with 40,000 miles if they live in the US, as opposed to 60,000 if they live in Europe. I don't know if this is true, but if it is you would be best off registering from a US address.

One factor that is important to me and may be important to others is the ability to earn miles using credit cards.

You are only going to be able to earn miles if you have a credit card from the country in which the airline is headquartered. (There are one or two exceptions with Delta, but Russia is not one of them.)



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Sir Dovster, OBE
(Omni Boycotter Extraordinaire)

NickW

(reward availability) As far as I understand, it has the same availabilty. I am in Delta's program and have had good luck in getting award flights on both Air France and Alitalia.


I'm not sure that this is true ... I seem to recall that Air France opens up an extra fare bucket for economy rewards for its elite F+ Bleu and Rouge members.

(miles for fares) If that is the case, you would probably want to choose a European airline. They will give you full mileage credit for your deeply discounted tickets, whereas Delta will only give you 50%. (On the other hand, Deleta will give you double mileage if you fly B/E, while the Europeans won't).

I don't think that's true either - Alitalia MilleMiglia will certainly give you double miles for DL B/E in exactly the same way it gives double miles for AZ Magnifica and Prima Eurobusiness classes.

(qualifying thresholds) I have been told recently that AF offers Elite Plus membership to people with 40,000 miles if they live in the US, as opposed to 60,000 if they live in Europe.

I think the only people who get caught by the increased mileage requirements for F+ elite status are those who live in France. I have an F+ account registered in Italy, and have the lower thresholds. Incidentally, I think the thresholds in France are even higher than you think, but you can get an AF Amex that gets you status miles for spend.

(credit cards for miles) You are only going to be able to earn miles if you have a credit card from the country in which the airline is headquartered. (There are one or two exceptions with Delta, but Russia is not one of them.)


Guess what? I disagree ... if you can get an American Express International Euro Card then you can redeem your Membership Rewards points for miles with Alitalia, Delta or Air France. Many European Amex products allow redemption into other country flag-carrier FF accounts as well - I have a UK MR accounts and can also redeem with DL, AZ and AF. In fact, I'm well on the way to a RTW award with just my Amex spend in the last year.

NickW

If you really want to earn quite a lot of miles, Alitalia is a good bet, in my opinion.

They give you full mileage even for the cheapest of cheap tickets (N, T, etc. fare buckets), double miles for business class tickets, minimum 1,200 miles for international segments, offer (currently) 500 mile per segment bonus for booking an e-ticket on their site, regularly double that e-ticket booking bonus, have the best redemption ratio of any SkyTeam carrier on the Amex UK charts - I earn 2.25 AZ miles per GBP I spend, and they give a 25% basic mileage bonus for their elites.

So for a Club Ulisse (SkyTeam Elite) flying heavily discounted economy (i.e. about £60 + taxes) from London to Milan on an e-ticket bought from their website ...

1,200 x 2 = 2,400 base mileage
2,400 x 0.25 = 600 elite bonus
500 x 2 = 1,000 e-tix bonus
-----
4,000 miles

... bearing in mind that a business class award to between Europe and the US is only 80,000 miles, you can earn that award spending only £1,600!

The Lurker

Does anyone have any experience with these SkyTeam programs matching status from Miles and More? I am a LH Senator, and if another program may match the status, it would definately make leaving easier.

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You won't see this on MTV! "US Airways Andean Theme Song" Music Video Part One and Part Two

lewinr

Thanks for your reply.

It is clear to me that most SENs would want at least Elite Plus status level, since Elite doesnt offer any lounge access (beyond what you would get based on your ticket class).

Now we need to analyze which program is easiest to achieve Elite Plus level in.

By the way, do any of the programs have two year requalification periods, or all the all one year? (Would it ever be nice to have something like blondbombers star-alliance chart for skyteam...)

NickW

It is clear to me that most SENs would want at least Elite Plus status level, since Elite doesnt offer any lounge access (beyond what you would get based on your ticket class).

Alitalia lets Club Ulisse members (ST Elite) use their lounges when flying on AZ flights, for what it's worth. This may be why the AZ lounges at MXP have been packed solid whenever I've been in there...

Now we need to analyze which program is easiest to achieve Elite Plus level in.

If you don't live in France, then AF F+ must be a good bet. If you fly enough to make LH SEN then you will make F+ Rouge trivially. Last time I checked, you could make F+ Rouge with five AF business class segments from the West Coast to Europe ... so you'd probably be looking at six or so between YYZ and SVO.

By the way, do any of the programs have two year requalification periods, or all the all one year?


I'm not aware of any programs other than LH M&M that offer that, full-stop.

Dovster

Alitalia has special lounges for Ulisse members and other lounges for Freccia Alata (Elite Plus) members. I know that SkyTeam Elite Plus are allowed in the Freccia Alata clubs, but don't know if SkyTeam Elites are allowed in the Ulisse lounges? Has anyone tried going in with SkyTeam Elite?

Oddly enough, when flying out of TLV with DL Gold, but on an Alitalia or Air France flight, I am allowed into the VIP Lounge.



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Sir Dovster, OBE
(Omni Boycotter Extraordinaire)

NickW

I read this too, but where ARE these lounges?

There's certainly nothing like this airside in the B satellite at MXP, for example... maybe on the A satellite, but I don't generally fly out of there on AZ (LH, yes...)

Dovster

They are on the A side, which also does not help me very much.



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Sir Dovster, OBE
(Omni Boycotter Extraordinaire)