Seat 2A

With so many of the world's so called "finer" airlines such as BA and CX not allowing Economy Class passengers access to the lavatories of the next class up, I can't help but wonder what happens to those poor people who choose to travel in Economy Class on those carriers.

I mean, it just isn't fair! So what if we paid less for our Economy Class tickets! So what if it's understood that by paying a lesser price we'd receive lesser service, comfort and amenities than those who paid more - we're still fellow human beings and we've still gotta go when we've gotta go. It's hard to believe that we're actually expected to use the lavs only in our own cabin. Equally amazing is that airlines exhibiting such ruthless practices are able to remain in business. They're mean! And uncivilized!

We're all just trying to get somewhere in a civilized fashion. Class be d*mned%2

Westcoaster

I assume this means you won't be flying AS? Good, less competition for upgrades!

AS became what it is partly because it isn't afraid to be different. They give away free guest upgrades like candy to MVPG's. How many other airlines do that? They upgrade an MVPG's companion free every time (subject to availability of course.) How many others do that? They haven't imitated the annoying use-it-or-lose-it rule or taken food off of flights to nearly the extent that some of the others have. They march to their own drummer.

Allowing coach passengers to use the forward lav when the aisle is blocked on craft with only one aisle is another AS distinction that reflects a common sense solution to a problem. They may find ways to regulate this if it becomes a problem, like limiting the number of people who can wait at aisle 6 as they did on my flight. But I hope AS doesn't cave and ban the practice altogether. Heaven forbid they become another UA.

fredmartens

I guess if I gotta go that bad and can't wait for the Y lav to open up, I'll start looking for a barf bag & hope it doesn't leak. Wouldn't the press love to gobble up the outrage over that...

Eastbay1K

Now now, people, there's a difference between people NEEDING to use the F lav when the aisle is blocked or some other unexpected urgency (in which case I don't have much issue) and being ENCOURAGED to use it.

Seat 2A

EXACTLY! Unexpected emergencies happen sometimes or the cart will be blocking the aisle to the rear for awhile and in those instances, it would be nothing short of uncivilized to not allow the use of the forward lav.

For the most part however, short of the above described circumstances, there's no reason for Coach Class passengers to be strolling through First Class, regardless of where they're sat.

Many airlines advise Coach passengers before the meal service to use the lavatory now as it won't be available during the meal service. Somehow, this system works and those passengers haven't rebelled.

As for Alaska Airlines offering all these extra goodies to its MVPs - so what? I mean, it's nice that they do but that shouldn't excuse cheapening the First Class experience any more than its already been. AS and others advertise an ambience in First Class, not just a big seat and a slightly better meal. I used to fly Alaska and other airlines back in the seventies and eighties when coach passengers weren't allowed past the divider between cabins. I and my fellow passengers in Coach had no problem respecting that rule. We did just fine working with what lavs were available to us even though we did have to stand in line at the back of the plane sometimes. Common sense also told us to use the lavs before the meal service if we needed to and otherwise the carts were never in the aisle so long on smaller single aisle aircraft that our bladders were in danger of rupturing. Now that we're upgrading all these traditional Coach Class passengers (myself included) into First Class, we all want to drag Coach Class up there with us.

Mind you, I'm not sitting up in First Class fuming when folks from Coach stroll through. This situation's been going on for a while now and my old fashioned views notwithstanding, it's not likely to change anytime soon. No point in getting all wound up about it as it happens on the aircraft. I've registered my views with Alaska's Consumer Affairs Dept. and will live just fine with whatever happens. In this forum of debate however, why not vent a bit? This is my view on the situation and I remain non repentant.

Alright then, flame on people!

lalala

On Jan 1 return from Oakland (the obnoxious greatful dead flight- more on that later) everytime I started to make a effort to leave my seat (3D), I was beaten to the lav by someone from coach.

I think F passengers should have priority and that there should be a number system, much like a Baskin Robbins or the Deli for coach passengers.

lala

EIPremier

The bar locks on the lavs are just so passe. I mean gosh, it's time to drag aircraft latrines into the 21st Century. They should distribute access cards to First Class passengers so that only they may enter the First Class loo. If they wanted to further the product differentiation, they could take a reel from their own advertising archives and institute coin-operated lavs in back.

[This message has been edited by EIPremier (edited 01-04-2003).]

JSeiple

I believe El Al has done this in the past.. keycards like hotel keys for FC passengers.

Western1K

I've watched this and the prior string on the issue. I did six legs in the past few days both sitting in F and back in Y.

I thought the FA's handled it well. For instance flying PHX-SEA a couple of nights ago on an MD-80 with a meal service I saw one individual waiting at the curtain a few times for the F lavatory. The FA had announced lavatory locations but clarified the availability of the forward lav when the aisle was blocked by a cart if the pax would wait at the barrier.

On the segments where I was seated in F I never saw or felt competition for the lavatory. I agree with the prior poster about AS being different...and positively so.

Eastbay1K

First class isn't supposed to be like a deli or waiting for ice cream.

Dick Ginkowski

GZPZ...I can't believe this thread!

If the cart blocks the aisle, then by all means the passenger should use the only available lavatory. It's just good common sense.

ajcopley

I second that! This thread is REDICULOUS! I was on a flight from EWR to SEA (737-800) and the middle lav. was out of order. I figured since it was out of order I had every right to use the "First Class" lavatory (like they have exclusive rights to it!), and the FA had the nerve to tell me that it was reserved for FC passengers only! Even with the middle lav. out of order for the entire flight, they made those of us sitting right behind FC go to the back lavs! You people in FC need to lighten up.

AS Flyer

The cart blocking the aisle and inop lavatories are different stories. If the carts are in the aisles then I don't see the problem with customers from the main cabin coming forward. If there is an inop lav then it's also not a problem. The problem I have is the constant flow of customers from the main cabin throughout the ENTIRE flight, even when the back lavs are completely unoccupied and there are no obstructions. It's not as if they are that far away that the walk would hurt anyone and those persons seated up front, especially those that have PAID for those seats, have every right to expect a quiet, private cabin. They paid for it and those in back did not. It's as simple as that. Yes, those seated up front DO have exclusive rights to the FIRST CLASS lav.

Seat 2A

Believe it, Dick! I'm sure more than a few people are laughing or even swearing at ol' Seat 2A for what they probably view as his ridiculous and misguided defense of the First Class cabin and lavs. Still, I'm not here to make friends with my responses. The issue was brought up in an earlier thread and I'm stating my position on it more succinctly in this thread. Honestly, my perseverence in this seemingly trivial matter is much more about the slow but steady degradation of the First Class product than it is about which lavs people can use.

Traditionally, First Class has been marketed as a less crowded, quieter and more peaceful environment than that found for lesser money back in Coach Class. Certainly, this environment has been advertised as more conducive to rest, relaxation and/or getting work done. This environment is not well served by the regular intrusion of Coach passengers through the First Class cabin.

I understand the airlines are going through difficult times and that cutbacks in services and amenities are inevitable, but if they're going to continue to dangle First Class as a luxurious perk for frequent flyers and/or entice us into spending more money or miles by marketing their First Class product using terms like "spacious", "relaxed", "restful" and "quieter", I expect them to deliver.

Interesting that society had no problem dealing with this traditional restriction between cabins in years past. Also interesting that most of the world's best airlines (as well as its just plain good ones) still enforce this restriction apparently without howls of protest from their "best" Coach and/or Business Class customers. Just last week I did a trip with Northwest. NW closes the curtain between cabins and expects Y Class passengers to use the Y Class lavs. The captain himself advised passengers to use the lavs before the carts got into the aisles. Despite this incredible hardship placed upon NW's Y Class clientele, even when there were carts in the aisles, there were no incontinence related "accidents" nor angry confrontations between the crew and any passengers who just couldn't deal with or understand the "common sense" of Northwest's policies.

What - are our bladders just getting weaker or has this more tolerant, permissive and "anything goes" society that we live in reduced us to masking with terms like "common sense" the concept that our own personal convenience is worth more than services and perks that others have either earned or paid good money for the right to enjoy?

I realize that mine is an unpopular stance, and if I should risk becoming a pariah amongst my fellow Alaska fliers or FTers in general as a result of my views, so be it. Regardless, you can all rest assured that if I'm sitting in First Class on an Alaska flight and you wander up from Coach to use the First Class lav, I won't give you the evil eye or even raise an eyebrow. Alaska invited you up and as such you have every right the F Class lav. I disagree with the policy however. Had it not been brought up on an earlier thread, I would likely never have addressed it. Still, I like a good debate, even if my views are obviously in the minority. And, I have yet to read any arguments compelling enough to give me cause to change my position. My perspective comes from 40 years of flying over 3000 flights over 2.5 million miles on 105 airlines, of which 1200+ flights covering 1.3 million miles have been in First Class. I've seen and experienced the very best as well as simply good service on alot of airlines. There's a reason why the vast majority of the best airlines enforce, by closing off the cabin, the less crowded, quieter and more peaceful environment they advertise First Class to be. I say good for them.

For what it's worth, if some of the lavs are out of order or someone has a true emergency, by all means Coach passengers should be able to use those First Class lavs. Otherwise however, they should be using those lavs designated for their cabin.

And hey! What the heck does GZPZ mean, anyway?

alanw

You're not alone, 2A. When I travel in Y, I never consider it my God-given "right" to barge into the F cabin just because I think I'm special/important/different.

People who do are essentially applying the same thought process as able-bodied people who park in disabled-designated parking spaces, IMO. Yes, I realize the situations are completely different, but that doesn't change the thought process that allows people to rationalize taking something that doesn't belong to them - whether a parking space or a pee.

I suspect many of the whiners are given to frequent use of phrases like "fat cats", as in, "Those fat cats up in first class think they're too good to let us use their lavatory." No amount of patient explaining the concept of paying for a premium product or service will deter people who play the victim in situations like this.

You know, I'm fat. Coach seats aren't very comfortable for me. Should I be able to move on up to a bigger F seat because I want to, or think I'm somehow entitled because of my big ...? Of course not. If I want the premium product, I pay for it either with dollars or miles.

Why this isn't obvious to everyone is something I can't figure out.

-alan in seattle,
joining Seat 2A in pariah-hood