Mar 24, 2015, 6:09 am
Last edit by: irishguy28
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- Please discuss confine general discussion of German or European medical practices or general information/perspective on mental health issues to a thread elsewhere that you may find by searching or may wish to start in an appropriate forum.
- General discussions of the "culture" of Germanwings -- including attitudes towards sickness -- can now be found on this thread, whose opening post was split off of this one: What is the Germanwings sickness attitude/culture like?
- GENERAL discussion of cockpit security procedures, comparisons to other countries' procedures, specifics regarding other airlines' procedures are off-topic for this thread. Please discuss in this thread in Travel Buzz: Cockpit security and policies on entering the cockpit [follow up 4U incident thread]
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4U9525 Moderator team: totti, oliver2002, NewbieRunner, starflyergold, DownUnderFlyer, cblaisd, TWA884
============================================
Germanwings Flight 4U 9525 (Barcelona - Dusseldorf) crashed on 24 March 2015, coming down in the Alps near Barcelonette France
Aircraft involved is Airbus A320 reg D-AIPX. It was delivered to Lufthansa in 1991 and passed to Germanwings in 2001. It received routine maintenance at DUS the day before the crash (performed by Lufthansa Technik) and had its last major overhaul ( C-Check) in the summer of 2013. Lufthansa have said the plane was in 'perfect' condition.
Circumstances
It is very likely that the aircraft was deliberately crashed by the co-pilot Andreas Lubwitz
As per Germanwings press conference held 1400 on 24th March:
The aircraft flew from DUS to BCN on the morning of the crash
The flight left BCN at 1001 local time, it reached crusing altitude of 38000 at 1045 but remained there for only one minute before beginning a descent which lasted 8 minutes and ended in the crash.
ATC permission was not asked for the descent and it is unclear whether or not the crew were in ATC contact and under what circumstances an emergency was declared.
Subsequent reports suggest there was no communication between the crew and ATC after the aircraft began to descend.
The weather was good at the time of the crash:
Surface weather near where they started the descent:
METAR LFTH 240800Z AUTO 07012KT 9999 NSC 15/08 Q1008
METAR LFTH 240830Z AUTO 07012KT 9999 NSC 15/09 Q1008
METAR LFTH 240900Z AUTO 08016KT 9999 FEW035 SCT130 15/08 Q1008
That's basically unrestricted visibility at the surface.
Posted by Captainmiles Post #156 in this thread
US govt sources say no evidence of terrorism (reported on sky news uk)
Germanwings/Lufthansa official response
Germanwings press conference announced for 1500 local time, to be held in Cologne
Press conference reports: Lufthansa group employees enroute to crash site, families of victims being informed, crisis center set up at DUS airport
New flight number have been announced
4U9440 DUS0645 0855BCN EQV
4U9441 BCN0935 1155DUS EQV
Relatives of victims have been transported to the crash area by Lufthansa
Lufthansa press conference held at 1330 GMT on 26 March stated that the plane was most likely brought down deliberately by the co-pilot.
Video recording of the press conference (26 March):
In German
In English (simultaneous translation)
Victims
Latest reports are 144 passengers and 6 crew aboard, Spanish government report 45 Spanish nationals, French government reports 0 French nationals, German government reports there are some German victims but numbers not known (German wings press conference reports 67), Sky News UK reports Turkish nationals on board. There were 2 babies, one of the belonging to a woman from Manchester and the other is German, the child of opera singer Maria Radner who was travelling on the flight with her husband.
Two of the victims were Australians - a mother and her adult son from Victoria.
Two victims from Argentina
Three from Great Britain
One Israeli
Two Colombians
One Belgian
One Dutch
Two Iranians
Three Americans
Two Japanese
Three Mexicans
The German victims include 16 pupils and 2 teachers from Joseph Koenig Gymnasium (high school) at Haltern Am See, they were returning from an exchange visit to Spain.
Crew comprised 4 cabin crew and 2 flight deck. The captain had been with Lufthansa group for 10 years and had over 6000 hours on this plane type.
The co-pilot is widely reported to have joined Germanwings straight out of training in 2013 and to have had 630 hours of experience.
French rescue services believe there are no survivors.
Emergency contact numbers
From Germany 0800 1133 5577
From Spain 902 400 012
0049 30 5000 3000
The names of the victims will be published once their families have been informed.
Crash site
The crash site has been identified by helicopters, it is not accessible by road and is around 2 and a half hours walk from the nearest road (reported Sky News UK). It is at an altitude of around 2000m. Search and rescue teams are en-route. There may be an avalanche risk which could hamper rescue efforts. Rescuers are assembling at Seyne-Les-Alpes.
Sky news UK are reporting that a helicopter has landed near the crash site. They have confirmed no survivors and have reported the largest piece of debris to be about car sized. The debris field is about 200 square meters in size. See also http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/24557269-post183.html
Investigation - confirmed information
Large numbers of French investigators are on site, efforts have been made to secure the site against outside interference.
The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) has been recovered and taken for investigation at French BEA. It is damaged but functional. Voices can be heard on the recording but it is unclear if they are those of the flight crew.
BEA is working in cooperation with German BFU (Bundesstelle fr Flugunfalluntersuchung), Airbus and CFM.
The aircraft was complete until impact - there was no midair breakup
"Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France"
New York Times reports that one of the two pilots was locked out of the cockpit during the descent: You can hear he is trying to smash the door down. http://nyti.ms/1HC7g9i
French prosecuters believe that the crash was caused by the deliberate actions of the co-pilot, he is thought to have locked the captain out of the cockpit and then to have deliberately crashed the aircraft.
Video of cockpit operation and manual override switch to block door from being opened externally. From The Guardian.
A locked door is opened by a flight crew inside the cockpit but can also be unlocked by cabin crew entering a keycode from the outside. Crew inside the cockpit can manually override it to keep a door locked for up to five minutes.
On 6 May 2015, the BEA released its preliminary report.
Reliable Sources
AV Herald page on the crash.
FlightRadar24 flight path map
flightware tracking log
BBC News "What we know so far"
Germanwings / 4U 9525 A320 Alpine plane crash 24 Mar 2015
Mar 27, 2015 | 7:30 am
#841
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One thing that explains the speed of reporting what happened might also be to clear any concerns regarding the a320 family of aircrafts, the most frequently used aircraft in the world right now (6,000+ in service, 5,000+ on order). (B737 4,500+ in service, 4,000+ on order).
Mar 27, 2015 | 7:44 am
#842
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One thing that explains the speed of reporting what happened might also be to clear any concerns regarding the a320 family of aircrafts, the most frequently used aircraft in the world right now (6,000+ in service, 5,000+ on order). (B737 4,500+ in service, 4,000+ on order).
Mar 27, 2015 | 7:47 am
#843
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Assuming that his breathing could have only be recorded with his headset on what baffles me about this whole thought of the co pilot being physically capable is why did he not remove his headset to keep ATC and crew from the cabin bothering him - there maybe a mute button he could have pressed.
Mar 27, 2015 | 7:55 am
#844
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Mar 27, 2015 | 8:08 am
#845
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The Mirage was ordered out from Orange shortly after 10:30 AM, but was flying too high and never made visual contact with the plane. In the several hours after the plane went down, French media only reported the scrambling of the Mirage, which led to some confusion in the press about what the fighter jet may have seen/done. It came out later that the Mirage was flying too high and couldn't get a visual.
Last edited by blairvanhorn; Mar 27, 2015 at 8:48 am
Mar 27, 2015 | 8:08 am
#846
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Greetings.
Ongoing, please discuss confine general discussion of German or European medical practices or general information/perspective on mental health issues to a thread elsewhere that you may find by searching or may wish to start in an appropriate forum.
General discussions of the "culture" of Germanwings -- including attitudes towards sickness -- can now be found on this thread, whose opening post was split off of this one:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/lufth...ture-like.html
Thank you.
cblaisd
For the moderation team
Ongoing, please discuss confine general discussion of German or European medical practices or general information/perspective on mental health issues to a thread elsewhere that you may find by searching or may wish to start in an appropriate forum.
General discussions of the "culture" of Germanwings -- including attitudes towards sickness -- can now be found on this thread, whose opening post was split off of this one:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/lufth...ture-like.html
Thank you.
cblaisd
For the moderation team
Last edited by cblaisd; Mar 27, 2015 at 8:19 am
Mar 27, 2015 | 8:15 am
#847
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Assuming that his breathing could have only be recorded with his headset on what baffles me about this whole thought of the co pilot being physically capable is why did he not remove his headset to keep ATC and crew from the cabin bothering him - there maybe a mute button he could have pressed.
The other thing which is hard to understand is how he could stay calm until the very end because even if he muted the headset he definately must have heard the inclreasing frantic efforts of people trying to break through the door.
However, maybe this is just an exceptional state of mind, where such things just wouldn't affect someone anymore. Like being in "tunnel vision".
The other thing which is hard to understand is how he could stay calm until the very end because even if he muted the headset he definately must have heard the inclreasing frantic efforts of people trying to break through the door.
However, maybe this is just an exceptional state of mind, where such things just wouldn't affect someone anymore. Like being in "tunnel vision".
The authorities apparently had been well aware of Mr. Lubitz' depression (the apparent cause of a pause in his flight training), but I'd imagine he hid much of what he was experiencing from the flight surgeons. Divulging the extent of his depression would likely seen a revocation of his duty fitness clearance, and it's quite possible medications to treat his depression would have resulted in his grounding as well, given the side effects of many medications used to treat depression.
Depression is extremely common - in the USA alone, it's estimated over 19 million suffer from depression. Depression is a leading cause of suicide. Unfortunately, depression also carries with it a lot of stigma, so it's difficult for many people with depression to seek help (in Mr. Lubitz' case, doing so would have resulted in the loss of his aspirational career).
More about depression on the US NIH page here.
BBC article about Mr. Lubitz and the emerging evidence of clinical depression, pursuant the police investigation of his home and his flat in Dsseldorf: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32087203
It's so ironic, to me, that perhaps the most common photo of Andreas Lubitz circulating today is one in which the Golden Gate Bridge is prominently in the background. Over 1,600 people have taken their lives by leaping from the Golden Gate Bridge. This entire tragedy weighs heavily on my heart, and it goes out to the many survivors.
This has been a most horrible tragedy. I can only hope it will also help more become aware of depression, the need to seek professional help if one is depressed, and probably re-examine how aviation surgeons deal with (and test for) depression among pilots and pilot candidates.
Mar 27, 2015 | 8:39 am
#848
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Originally Posted by The Times
Passengers screamed as captain took axe to cockpit door
As they plunged towards their deaths, one of the last things seen by passengers and cabin crew near the front of the Germanwings Airbus A320 was their captain, Patrick Sonderheimer, desperately trying to smash down the door of the cockpit.
As they plunged towards their deaths, one of the last things seen by passengers and cabin crew near the front of the Germanwings Airbus A320 was their captain, Patrick Sonderheimer, desperately trying to smash down the door of the cockpit.
Mar 27, 2015 | 8:39 am
#849
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Mar 27, 2015 | 9:14 am
#851
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I am surprised that no one who flew on the DUS-BCN segment has come forward to the media (or Reddit, or something.) Did no one notice the co-pilot at any point? What about security videos (as with MH370)? Surely those are being examined.
I agree the quick release of information was necessary to prepare families and everyone else for the shock of the truth. As horrible as it has been to process the information, I am glad they did it (and that it spurred immediate policy changes.)
I agree the quick release of information was necessary to prepare families and everyone else for the shock of the truth. As horrible as it has been to process the information, I am glad they did it (and that it spurred immediate policy changes.)
Mar 27, 2015 | 9:15 am
#852
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The tough question is how to proceed in protecting the public in the future when it is up to the pilot or crew members to report mental health issues given the line of work they are in? There's no blood test that is going to diagnose it.
I think the 2 person in the cockpit at all times is a good start. NZ has just adopted this.
Mar 27, 2015 | 9:20 am
#853
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This is a question of semantics. The English language doesn't have a single word to describe a combined act of suicide and homicide. One could use phrases such as "homicidal suicide" and "suicidal homicide", whereby the noun would indicate the primary objective and the adjective would indicate a secondary consequence. Whereas a suicide bomber's primary objective is to kill others (suicidal homicide), the scenario we are examining here is where the perpetrator's primary objective was to kill himself (homicidal suicide). I therefore suggest that "suicide" is an appropriate word.
Mar 27, 2015 | 9:24 am
#854
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It was mentioned here, in passing, yesterday.
But I think this is a non-issue. What level of contact does a passenger have with a First Officer? To say they noticed strange/odd behaviour seems a little unconvincing. And, apart from that, there is no story - except that they were incredibly lucky. But on that point, it's the people who were booked and changed/missed their flight only that usually get a mention.
Mar 27, 2015 | 9:34 am
#855
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The Times were reporting that towards the end he was using a crash axe to break down the door but it was too late as the GPWS was sounding.
Where did the Captain get the crash axe from- I thought there was only one in the cockpit?
Do many operators have one in the cabin? Or perhaps the Times have made a mistake?
Where did the Captain get the crash axe from- I thought there was only one in the cockpit?
Do many operators have one in the cabin? Or perhaps the Times have made a mistake?