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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 9:03 am
  #31  
Ari
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Originally Posted by pmocek
My response to Mr. Steiger follows:
Code:
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 07:03:59 -0700
From: Phil Mocek
To: Paul Steiger - ProPublica Editor-in-Chief
Cc: Stephen Engelberg - ProPublica Managing Editor, Charles Ledford,
    Carlos Miller, Lance Rosenfield
Subject: Re: Texas City police detain and search photographer, and you
         complain only of BP staff's behavior?

[added photographers Lance Rosenfield and Charles Ledford to recipient list;
following is the third message in a discussion between ProPublica staff and me
regarding a recently-reported incident of police harassment of a photographer
who photographed an oil refinery from a public street]

On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 02:10:27AM -0400, ProPublica Editor-in-Chief
Paul Steiger wrote:
> Thanks for your note of July 5.

You're welcome.  Thank you for your reply.

> First, I want to note that it was our story that brought all of these facts
> to your attention, so I don't think we're letting anything "slide" or not
> bringing attention to it.

It was [discussion of the incident on FlyerTalk forums][1], not [your
story][2], that brought this to my attention.  However, that discussion seems
to have been spurred by one participant in the discussion reading your story,
so I suppose that indirectly, your story did bring some facts to my attention.
I thank you for that.

 [1]: <http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-safety-security/1102009-photographer-detained-texas-city.html>
 [2]: <http://www.propublica.org/article/photographer-detained-briefly-by-bp-and-local-police>

> Second, we aren't necessarily finished with this subject. You might want to
> watch our site the next few days.

Thanks for the tip.  I'll do so.

> However, I must disagree that Homeland Security has no right under any
> circumstances to be concerned about film taken of sensitive facilities from
> public property.

First, Homeland Security doesn't have rights.  I do, you do, and Lance
Rosenfield does, but a governmental department does not.  It has some powers
granted by the people and some restrictions on how those powers can be used.

Second, that's a straw man.  I did not mention Homeland Security in my message to you, and I did not mention anything about anyone's concern about film being taken anywhere.  I wrote that police officers "should not be detaining anyone for photographing anything that is visible to the public, and they should notuse threats of arrest to coerce reporters into handing over their belongings."
Do you disagree with that statement?

If it is so dangerous for the public to examine something that we must prevent
them from photographing it, then we should also prevent them from looking at
it.  When something is situated outside in plain view of anyone who passes it
on public property, it is utterly ridiculous to prohibit those people who see
that thing from remembering it, taking notes about it, describing it to other
people, or photographing it.

> Refineries are an obvious potential target for terrorists.

I don't find that to be obvious, but assuming for the sake of discussion that
oil refineries are such targets, how is that relevant here?  Photography is
not an act of terrorism.

Instead of calling out BP's, Texas City Police's, and U.S. Dept.  of Homeland
Security's fear mongering -- including the ridiculous notice that Mr.
Rosenfield's photos were cleared by the Joint Terrorism Task Force before he
was released -- ProPublica featured a quote from its editor-in-chief saying,
"We certainly appreciate the need to secure the nation's refineries."

> Where we agree completely is that, IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, there was no
> reason for the police to threaten arrest, or to look at our photographer's
> images.

I'm glad we agree on that point.  I wish Stephen Engelberg had taken the
opportunity to make that point in his article.  I'm concerned that you may
have many readers who think there are some circumstances in which a private
company can phone the police and have someone detained and investigated for
terrorist activity simply because he was on a public road taking pictures of
something that is plainly visible to the public.

In fact, I'm rather concerned that someone in your position of influence seems
to think so.  Could you please provide an example of some OTHER CIRCUMSTANCE in which 1) someone photographed from a public place something that is in constant view of the public and 2) there would be reason for police to use threats of arrest to coerce that photographer into consenting to a search the content of his camera?

> Here's where our work with BP comes into play: Because the company knew we
> were on deadline on a story about Texas City, and because the company and
> the police were closely coordinating, a photographer declaring he was
> working with us on such a story should have been believed, or, at the very
> least, his account could have been checked with our newsroom.

I am dumbfounded by the fact that in light of police interference with your
photographer's First-Amendment-protected activity, you are focused on the idea
that the police should have believed the man when he said he was working on a
story.  It shouldn't have mattered what he was working on, or if he was
working on anything.  If they had thrown him in jail for the night, would you
still complain that *because BP knew you wanted to publish your story soon and
because the police were working closely with BP,* they should have believed
him or called your newsroom before locking him up?  They shouldn't have
detained him in the first place.

I've yet to see any reporting of the idea that the police had any reason to
suspect wrongdoing.  Do you think that they did?

I wonder if ProPublica would have found this story newsworthy if instead of a
freelance photographer working for your organization, the photographer had
been [Carlos Miller][3], [Charles Ledford][4], or [me][5].  I would not have
consented to that search.  Do you suppose I would have been treated
differently by Texas City Police for maintaining my protection from
unreasonable search in addition to my freedom of expression?  Would it have
been acceptable for police to detain me even longer, since they would have no
newsroom to contact for assurance that my photography was not cause for
concern?

 [3]: <http://carlosmiller.com/about/>
 [4]: <http://stretchphotography.com/blog/2010.07.01/banned-from-metro/>
 [5]: <http://www.papersplease.org/wp/mocek/>

> In any event, none of this justifies BP personnel's having been shown the
> photographs-- an action by the police that is obviously subject to abuse.

Am I to understand that you feel police disclosure of the result of a consent
search of a photographer's camera to a private party is clearly cause for
concern, but that the duress which led to consent to the search is less
clearly so?  ProPublica's reporting of the incident along with your statements
to me lead me to believe that such is the case.

> Beyond this, and contrary to your statement, it's not at all clear to our
> counsel, on the facts we described, that BP did not violate the law.

That is not contrary to any statement I made to you.  I suspect the statements
to which you meant to respond were, "BP staff may have acted inappropriately,
but they have the right to do so.  Mr.  Engelberg did not describe any
unlawful behavior on the part of BP staff."  I stand by those statements.  BP
staff can make all the requests they want, follow reporters down the street,
and call the police, and unless a judge has ordered them to refrain from doing
so, it's perfectly legal for them to do so.  Mr. Engelberg reported exactly
three actions on the part of BP staff: confronting Mr. Rosenfield, following
him down the street, and receiving information provided to them by the police.
I don't believe that any of those actions is unlawful.

What law do your counsel believe, on the facts you described, that the BP
staff may have violated in this incident?

> If the detention was undertaken at BP's behest, then this may have been a
> denial of the photographer's civil rights under color of law by BP.

Please describe more clearly the puppetry you implied.  Are you suggesting
that BP staff lied to police in order to convince those police to detain Mr.
Rosenfield?  Do you suspect that the police took direction from BP staff and
that it was unlawful for BP staff to issue such direction?

If Mr. Rosenfield's rights were infringed upon, it seems from Mr.  Engelberg's
reporting that Texas City Police (and possibly the U.S. Dept. of Homeland
Security) were the perpetrators of that injustice, and that ProPublica have
glossed over this fact, aiming for the easier target.  Please, go ahead and
kick BP while they're down -- it's probably the least of what they deserve --
but don't play along with our federal government's attempts to terrorize us
with threats of bogeymen lurking around every corner.

--
Phil Mocek
Sure, treat these guys like SATTSO and the Arizona tourism people-- see how far it gets you.

In other words, not everyone has patience for your antics, especially when you respond to / argue just about every little point in the email. You took an abrasive, argumentative approach in your email and I would not be surprised if they don't respond at all as a result of that.

You also have to understand that sometimes lawyers might know more than you; for example, their consul says that BP might have broken the law and you just argue with it. When he said "[i]f the detention was undertaken at BP's behest, then this may have been a denial of the photographer's civil rights under color of law by BP" and you ask "[w]hat law do your counsel believe, on the facts you described, that the BP staff may have violated in this incident?." Their position is clear-- if the detention was puppetry, it was illegal. And why would you argue legal points with a lawyer through his client anyway?

You were also able to find occassion in your email to belittle the circulation of their publication:

It was [discussion of the incident on FlyerTalk forums][1], not [your story][2], that brought this to my attention. However, that discussion seems to have been spurred by one participant in the discussion reading your story, so I suppose that indirectly, your story did bring some facts to my attention. I thank you for that.
Had they not published the article, I'm not sure what facts you would know, if any. Was that really necessary? (Hint: no).

If you wanted to reply to the email with questions, you could have done that, but you couldn't resist the temptation to argue. Grow up.

Last edited by Ari; Jul 6, 2010 at 9:09 am
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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 9:05 am
  #32  
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Phil, you rock. ^
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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 9:07 am
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Spiff
Phil, you rock. ^
+1

Agreed
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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 4:00 pm
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Originally Posted by Ari
Sure, treat these guys like SATTSO and the Arizona tourism people-- see how far it gets you.
I got multiple responses out of the AZ Tourism Board; they didn't refuse to talk to me. In the end, it was clear that they didn't have an answer, though their Web site purported to provide one. SATTSO made it clear to everyone paying attention to our discussion that he or she was, in fact, evading questions. Where else would you expect me to get with them? Legal advice from a board of tourism? Acknowledgement from an airport security guard that he's part of something horrible?

Originally Posted by Ari
not everyone has patience for your antics, especially when you respond to / argue just about every little point in the email.
People who would prefer not to discuss some point should refrain from making it. Almost every point Steiger made in his response was either irrelevant or inaccurate. I could either let myself be walked over or refute those points.

Originally Posted by Ari
You took an abrasive, argumentative approach in your email and I would not be surprised if they don't respond at all as a result of that.
The man told me repeatedly that he disagreed with me, then explained his disagreement with things I never wrote. Should I just ignore that? Would the truth be less abrasive if I sent some flowers along with the message?

Originally Posted by Ari
You also have to understand that sometimes lawyers might know more than you;
Understood 100%. In fact, when it comes to the law, I'd say lawyers almost always know more than I do. You may have noticed that I asked what his lawyers had to say about the situation.

Originally Posted by Ari
for example, their consul says that BP might have broken the law and you just argue with it.
He didn't write that. He wrote, "it's not at all clear to our counsel, on the facts we described, that BP did not violate the law." Okay, great. Let's unwind that mess. So they're not positive that BP was in compliance with the law. No kidding. Would they ever be?

Furthermore, he prefaced that statement with, "and contrary to your statement," but what he wrote was not at all contrary to my statement. He was arguing with me again about something I didn't write or even imply. I wrote, "BP staff may have acted inappropriately, but they have the right to do so. Mr. Engelberg did not describe any unlawful behavior on the part of BP staff." BP staff do have the right to act inappropriately as long as they're not violating the law. Engelberg did not, best I can tell, describe any unlawful behavior on the part of BP staff. Steiger didn't dispute either of those assertions. Instead he erected another straw man and tore it down. I'm not going to let that slide. If he misunderstood me, now he should understand me. If he was playing games, he lost that set.

Originally Posted by Ari
When he wrote "[i]f the detention was undertaken at BP's behest, then this may have been a denial of the photographer's civil rights under color of law by BP" and you ask "[w]hat law do your counsel believe, on the facts you described, that the BP staff may have violated in this incident?."
Yes, I asked that. Do you think it's unlawful for someone to ask the police to do something? I doubt it. That's why I asked him to clarify. Does he think the BP staff lied to the police in order to achieve the action they desired? Does he think the police took direction directly from BP? Those are two very different scenarios, and there are surely other likely ones. Rather than guessing what he meant, I asked him to tell me. If I didn't care what he meant, I wouldn't have asked for clarification.

Originally Posted by Ari
Their position is clear-- if the detention was puppetry, it was illegal.
If their position was, "if the detention was puppetry, then it was illegal," then the story should be that the police are taking direction from a private company, not "We have to protect the nation's refineries, but..." (I did choose not to address the fact that those are not our refineries, but a private company's) and not "We're bothered that under our tight deadline, which the police were aware of, they didn't call our newsroom to ask about the guy they picked up."

Originally Posted by Ari
And why would you argue legal points with a lawyer through his client anyway?
I don't believe I did.

Originally Posted by Ari
You were also able to find occasion in your email to belittle the circulation of their publication:
I didn't belittle their publication's circulation. I corrected him. In response to my accusation of them letting the government agents' unconstitutional actions slide, he suggested I find solace in the fact that they brought it to my attention in the first place. He was wrong. They did not bring it to my attention. SDF_Traveler did. I admitted that ProPublica played a role, since SDF_Traveler sourced that information from them (as will anyone who reports it, since the story is about the guy ProPublica had out taking photographs) and thanked them for that.

Originally Posted by Ari
Had they not published the article, I'm not sure what facts you would know, if any.
I can't argue with that. ProPublica (which, in this context, I'll use to include the free-lance photographer they used), BP, the police, and the guy who claimed to be from Homeland Security, were the only people who knew about it. The other parties were unlikely to report it. Had ProPublica not reported what happened to ProPublica, we probably would not have heard what happened to ProPublica.

Originally Posted by Ari
If you wanted to reply to the email with questions, you could have done that, but you couldn't resist the temptation to argue. Grow up.
Ari, I sent the man some comments and questions about an article he published. He responded by arguing with me -- mostly about things I never wrote. Should I have brushed off half of what he wrote as if it was insignificant? That would be rather insulting. If he didn't intend to make the points he tried to make, he shouldn't have tried to make them. He's a journalist, so I think it's reasonable to take his words at face value, since he should know how to write well enough to avoid writing one thing when he means another. It isn't as if I'm bullying someone who's just not a skilled writer or is unfamiliar with the situation.

ProPublica purports to be part of the "new guard" of journalism. But their editor-in-chief's deferential attitude toward police and the federal government is just more of the same in a different medium. I refuse to mosey along and pretend otherwise.
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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 4:25 pm
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by pmocek
I got multiple responses out of the AZ Tourism Board; they didn't refuse to talk to me. In the end, it was clear that they didn't have an answer, though their Web site purported to provide one. SATTSO made it clear to everyone paying attention to our discussion that he or she was, in fact, evading questions. Where else would you expect me to get with them? Legal advice from a board of tourism? Acknowledgement from an airport security guard that he's part of something horrible?



People who would prefer not to discuss some point should refrain from making it. Almost every point Steiger made in his response was either irrelevant or inaccurate. I could either let myself be walked over or refute those points.

I have a question for you, Phil. You say I evade questions, but please explain this which I post from another thread:

(Phil's question to me) "Is it TSA's policy to refrain from offering "passenger screening" (i.e., searching and questioning of a passenger) to a person if that person has ID on his or her person and refuses to show TSA that ID?
"Yes, that is TSA policy" "no, that is not TSA policy," or "cannot answer; more information needed"
Quote:
Originally Posted by SATTSO
1. Would ask you then, "ok, how can we identify you." decision wouldn't be made until that question is asked and or/answered.

(Phil then replies to my answer) You never said, yes, no, or cannot answer. Would you please either answer the question, tell us that you cannot answer it, or tell us that you refuse to answer it? I suspect that the answer is 'no,' but I'd like you to confirm. Did you mean to say, "No, Phil, it is not our policy to refrain from offering "passenger screening" (i.e., searching and questioning of a passenger) to someone because he refused to show us ID that he has on his person."?


Have I caught you in a lie, Phil, or has it come out now that you simply do no understand? Or are you just being difficult? Personally, I think you are either not honest, and/or being difficult.

Your question gave multiple options "yes", "no" "cannot answer;more information needed".

Having learned about how you post here, I did not specifically say "more information needed", as before that got me no where. What did I do? I gave a SPECIFIC question that would be asked that clearly indicates more information needed.

Here is where I think you have proven yourself a dishonest person, though, becasue you then wrote:

"You never said, yes, no, or cannot answer."

Oddly enough, you left out part of what you were looking for in your first post of the question, which was "more information needed". And we know why you left the "more information" part out - because I answered, and told you specifically what the "more information" would be. But you like to be difficult, so when you restated your question after you said I haven't answered, "more information" was missing...

Once I read that in your other post, I didnt read any further. Your not honest. But I doubt many here will call you out on it, as most here are not fans of TSA and can live with your dishonesty as you attack TSA. No, they will cheer you and your lies on and on and on...

OR, am I mistaken, and you simply have a hard time understanding what I write?

I can tell you this. I have answered every one of your questions. In that thread in particular, I post a point-by-point answer to you questions. Perhaps you dont like my answers? Im ok with that. But its another lie to say I haven't answered or have evaded your questions.

Please be honest, Phil. We all know your a diffcult person, even if most here will not admit it. But a few others call you out on it, such as Ari, so I know im not the only one to see it. But there is nothing wrong with being honest. It might actually make you feel good to act in such a way. Just a suggestion.

Oh, and when you start being honest, I will answer your questions

Last edited by SATTSO; Jul 6, 2010 at 5:12 pm
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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 5:00 pm
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Ari
AC360 picked up on this and had a ~5-minute segment during which they interviewed the photographer. ^
Link to article with transcript of the above AC360 interview.
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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 7:04 pm
  #37  
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Originally Posted by SATTSO
Please be honest, Phil. We all know your a diffcult person, even if most here will not admit it. But a few others call you out on it, such as Ari, so I know im not the only one to see it. But there is nothing wrong with being honest. It might actually make you feel good to act in such a way. Just a suggestion.

Oh, and when you start being honest, I will answer your questions
Don't worry. I'm sure most of the reasonable, intelligent people on this board are aware of Phil's "tactics."
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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 7:38 pm
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Originally Posted by DeaconFlyer
Don't worry. I'm sure most of the reasonable, intelligent people on this board are aware of Phil's "tactics."
I don't know him - or anyone on this site - except for our conversations here. But I'm beginning to believe his mouth got him arrested at the airport. I am NOT saying he should have been arrested, but only from what I know of him here, I'm sure he had something to do with the escalation of that particular situation.
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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 8:06 pm
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Originally Posted by Ari
What does this have to do with travel?
Oh, you beat me to it, and by several days.

Can the rest of you please go be outraged and disgusted elsewhere? Thanks.
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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 9:55 pm
  #40  
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Originally Posted by yyzvoyageur
Oh, you beat me to it, and by several days.

Can the rest of you please go be outraged and disgusted elsewhere? Thanks.
No. Here is just fine, thank you.
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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 10:11 pm
  #41  
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Originally Posted by yyzvoyageur
Oh, you beat me to it, and by several days.

Can the rest of you please go be outraged and disgusted elsewhere? Thanks.
There's a big, bright world out there to be sanctimonious in. @:-)
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Old Jul 6, 2010 | 10:31 pm
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Originally Posted by PhlyingRPh
+1

Agreed
me too

+1
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Old Jul 7, 2010 | 12:59 am
  #43  
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Originally Posted by SATTSO
I don't know him - or anyone on this site - except for our conversations here. But I'm beginning to believe his mouth got him arrested at the airport. I am NOT saying he should have been arrested, but only from what I know of him here, I'm sure he had something to do with the escalation of that particular situation.
Ya think?
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Old Jul 7, 2010 | 9:05 am
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Spiff
Photographers should start carrying firearms if they don't already.
So they could charge him with murder or attempted murder instead of just hassling him?
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Old Jul 7, 2010 | 9:25 am
  #45  
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Originally Posted by gfunkdave
So they could charge him with murder or attempted murder instead of just hassling him?
No, but if he is approached by mall cops BP "security" while he is on public property, he can tell them to go pound sand and be able to defend himself if they choose to physically interfere with him. @:-)
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