Hello-

I saw this discussion over in the SkyTeam alliance thread, but that thread seems to not really be attended/closely read by many, so I wanted to ask it here:

Is there something changing/changed concerning the AF/DL relationship? Apprently, several people have talked about being "involuntarily" downgraded on Biz Class miles tickets. They use the 100K/250K to get a seat in Biz class and then AF notifies them about an hour before the flight that AF "no longer honors Skymiles tickets" and the passenger will have to sit in coach?!

Anyone know anything about this? Maybe some of the "DL-people" that read this thread can shed some light on this? This is very very disturbing if it is going on without prior notice.

DL has eliminated the availability of Z class on DL marketed/AF operated flights since December. Z was the fare class used for Skymiles upgrades. This was done without advance notice to AF or Skymiles members. The passengers are accepted in economy as that is what DL remits to AF since suppressing the miles upgrades.

Skymiles awards are booked in O (business) and X (economy) under the AF flight numbers and are not affected.

There have been some posts about this but couldn't locate anything with a quick search.

Was 100k/250k applicable to Z (upgrades)? The 250k amount sounds like a an O (award) SkyChoice-type ticket.

Z (upgrades) being downgraded without compensation is bad enough, but O-ticket holders being downgraded without compensation is even less excusable.

I have read over in the AF forum about pax being downgraded from Biz on very busy routes such as PVG-CDG. I imagine award seats would be downgraded before paid business, and hopefully pax upgraded from coach would be downgraded before award ticket holders.
This makes me slightly nervous as I have 4 longhaul AF segments upcoming on a RTW award in J. I imagine you could insist on being reaccomodated on a different flight (with some sort of compensation) in J rather than taking the downgrade.

A downgrade technically gives right to a partial refund with the amound dependent upon the price originally paid and the length of the flight, with some exceptions including French DOM-TOM flights.

The refund amount depends upon the price of the ticket, but it's unclear to me whether this means the total price or only the price for the sector(s) on which the passenger is downgraded? Also unclear is what price to use for an affected sector if the ticket is anything other than a single or simple paid return ticket. That is, award tickets and round-the-world tickets are covered by applicable laws but in such a way that the remedy stipulated under law is unclear; put the two together and you are in even more amorphous territory than was already the case*.

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* Even on a simple paid return ticket what do they do in a situation where the discounted biz fare is cheaper than the full coach fare or cheapest coach fare available on that flight at time of downgrade?

Alright, so, you can't use Miles to upgrade an international flight using SkyMiles, but done on AF metal, right? Ok.

1. That is good to know. Wish we'd hear about these things BEFORE they happened.

2. Are you SURE the O and X (award seats booked on AF using DL SkyMiles) are not affected? I have heard stories of people with O (biz award) getting downgraded. I'd be LIVID! Use 100k (or god-forbid 250k) and then get moved to coach for possibly an 8-10 hour flight?!!? How can this be "ok"? Shouldn't AF just accept the fact that if they open a certain amount of seats in Biz to be used my DL as award seats, then they have that many less to sell?

Premium cabin downgrades happen on all major airlines, including Delta and Air France. For the record, it also happens on airlines like Lufthansa, United, British Airways and so on.

When the premium cabin is oversold, those without status or those checking in late or those without a pre-assigned seat are usually most likely to find themselves in such a situation.

On any airline. Not just Air France.

Yes. But is downgrading happening more often with AF-operated flights on DL-issued award and upgraded tickets than it happens with say OK-issued award tickets for AF-operated flights?

Judging from my personal experience last month, I'd say something IS going on with the AF/DL relationship. On an outbound ATL-CDG flight, the AF gate agent tried to downgrade my wife who had an O ticket (90,000 miles redemption), and not a Z ticket (upgrade), claiming AF no longer honored DL award seats. In retrospect, I think she was confusing the new rule no longer allowing Z upgrades. In any event, she relented and let my wife take her seat in coach.

On the return flight (CDG-ATL) a week later, AF downgraded both my wife (on an O ticket) and me (on an I ticket). They did so despite the fact that we had assigned seats (confirmed 3 times during the week prior to the flight), despite the fact we arrived at CDG almost 3 hours prior to departure, and despite my protests about my Elite-Plus status. The lounge attendant who advised us of the downgrade even made a snide remark about how they (AF) wish they didn't have to deal with Delta passengers at all.

If indeed true then that's very bad news! Especially for those using "Z" upgrades on "AF only" routes like LAX/SFO/BOS/PHL-CDG. I know that these upgrades were hard to get but i was able to use PMU's/miles for upgrades from LAX to CDG several times during the last years.

I hope you complained to Delta about this, especially the snide comment...

Wrong - it is totally INEXCUSABLE

Jeff, problem here in aisle 7. Please stop by with a mop and bucket ASAP!

AF oversells the J cabin just as they oversell the Y cabin. Many airlines do this, like it or not. It sounds like people are mixing up different experiences to come up with the blanket policy that AF doesn't honor Skymiles awards. But I'll confirm the following:

1) Z upgrades are gone, based on a decision by Skymiles, not AF.
2) Business seats are all confirmed seats (including awards booked in O by AF or partners).
3) AF policy allows certain passengers the privilege of being "protected" in their class of service (based on terms of a corporate contract, etc.). So, it is possible for Mr Smith from ABC Company with a EUR 30 million annual contract with AF to walk up at the end of check-in and still be assured his J seat, despite someone else having checked in 10 minutes earlier being downgraded. The check-in system "knows" who these passengers are.
4) Keep in mind that a majority of passengers checking in at CDG, despite being 3 hours before departure, are among the last checked-in considering the amount of passengers handled by upline cities (on connection).
5) On many routes the number of protected passengers can make up more than half the J cabin. I have seen cases where 30 people from one contract company take up 40 of the J seats on a single flight.
6) Assigned seats does not assure you will not be downgraded; if there are "protected" passengers without seat assignments they will be re-allocated to accommodate them at the end of check-in if necessary.
7) Downgraded passengers are entitled to downgrade compensation as follows:
---- EUR450 / USD450 transportation voucher + refund of 75% of the fare paid on that sector (paid tkts), or
---- EUR450 / USD450 transportation voucher + refund of the miles between Y + J award on that sector (award tickets), or
---- Rerouting on another carrier in J class (plus applicable denied boarding compensation, normally EUR380/USD380 trans voucher)
For the difference of fare or miles, you must submit the boarding card stub plus your ticket receipt to the issuing party for processing.

So someone with an award ticket booked 11 months in advance can be bumped by a "protected passenger" who decides on a whim to standby for an earlier flight? While this may make some business sense to AF, it sounds absurd from a customer service standpoint. I find it hard to imagine that DL would do this on any basis except for an extreme exception.

This is why I decided to bring this up. I found it to be outrageous?!