But it is damaging to Qantas if its changes to the way it treats those who fly on partners causes people to abandon Qantas altogether. For me, this tipping point has been reached. Now, whenever I fly home to Australia, I will be all but certain not to fly Qantas as I will have left the programme.

I wonder how many people will actually quit travelling on Qantas though.

The airline you fly and the FFP where you credit miles for that flight do not need to be same. This is what FFP airline partners are about. You can fly QF and credit to AA

Very few IMHO. We are the 1%-5%-?% who actually take interest FFP's. But some of those 1%-5%-?% have a higher number of flights compared to the average punter. For many punters price is the only consideration

A small percentage of those that travel frequently though. Most I suspect will just carry on as before. It would be very good if lots do quit and highlight to Qantas that there are limits before people react. A small percentage of the small percentage of frequent travellers leaving is almost natural attrition

Solid advice - I started following it about 2.5 years ago. :)

Living in London and as a result of these changes, when flying to Australia I'm now more likely to fly CX and credit to BA.

QF used to get at least four flights out of me a year, purely to maintain status. That won't be happening anymore.

I think it's QF following VA, as Velocity is really revenue based.

The SC earn zones are now loosely closer to the VA zoning as well (750, 1500 for example)

And always has been. If QF was just copying VA, then they would have done this years ago.

To be frank, I doubt QF would be particularly worried by a customer whose profile is like this. Nor would any other airline. QFFF has long signalled a lack of interest in pursuing UK-based customers, for whom QFFF often makes little sense anyway. Alternatives like BAEC have changed to accommodate many (like me) for whom QFFF had previously been a good option. Obviously, there will always be some UK-based customers who want to stick with QFFF or QF because "Qantas is for Australians" - but that only aligns them to that line of thought within QF itself. But leaving that aside, it sounds like you could long have held the equivalent status in BAEC without having to fly QF (or even if still flying QF).

But these changes should cause QF to worry about customers who have some different profiles - particularly those who might change alliance altogether because of these QFFF changes. A change in behaviour from some of them could do some real damage to QF's revenues.

Am I reading it right that

Intra-Asia flights, Asia - Middle East & Asia - USA Partner flights SC earn rate remains?

Other than those with flight miles more than 7000 flight miles?

The rest all decreased by 50%?

Having said that, if someone "just" makes WP under the old QF system, then depending on the flying pattern, e.g. LHR-BUD in CE earned 60 SCs whereas it is 40 TPs with BA, he/she may not make BAEC Gold. Something to watch out for. BA Gold threshold is 1500, so those earning 1200 SCs from predominantly 60 SC CE destinations won't get anywhere near 1500 TPs from BAEC. On the other hand with BA WT+ earns 90/100 TPs so if that is the main cabin of choice, it is easier to earn the status with BAEC than with QF.


I agree with what you said there. I do not think Qantas is worried about those who earn WPs predominantly flying with other carriers and just flies 4 QF sectors, maybe unless those 4 sectors are in F. I actually suspect they actively don't want them.

For some time, I was flying a lot more than 4 QF sectors per year but not a very large number and was Europe-based. I was treated rather differently when I was in Australia and when I was in Europe, despite earning a lot more SCs when I was in Europe, up to about 5,000 SCs / year at some point. I felt rather unwanted.

I still feel somewhat unwanted, despite the latest changes benefiting my crediting patterns. I think the partner earning table adjustment, especially of competing routes, really annoyed me despite not affecting me at all, I only credit QF and JQ flights to QF, and the rest of them go to BA.

But of course not everyone has the luxury of crediting whatever they feel like and keep status in two or more schemes. I think the biggest risk to Qantas, as you say, are the 'mid-range' customers who fly Qantas a fair bit but also a fair bit of OW, and following the change, they'd rather fly with another alliance or another carrier within OW and credit to the scheme of that carrier or another. I wonder if they thought through that one.

If they sell off QFF in 6 months and the above scenario doesn't play out until 12-18 months, I doubt they will give a flying roo....

Big downgrade on earning SC's in the US for Y-UP fares... used to be able to earn 600SC just on one ticket. I just squeaked past lifetime Silver using my latest P-class run on AA. Between the devaluation and AA now only allowing single connections, Gold is probably unattainable at this point.

Is QF going to be a part of oneworld for much longer at this rate?

just studied the new table and it looks like QF is learning from EK to real mess up its FFP

New Earning Table (esp Partner Airlines)
 

So for me it was a MUC-XXX-SIN-MEL-XXX-MUC in Business 1-2 times per year for 1-2 Pax. Plus some domestic in the last 7 years. So not just the 4 Red E-Deals. Topped up with BA, AY and AB flights to get WP and sometimes PG.

Yes, but some routes will have a lower SC value.

DFW-DEN, for example, earns 90 SCs under old scheme in P.

Now, only 60 SCs !

The changes certainly reduce the attractiveness of the SYD-AKL LA route. In Business class this used to net 160 SPs for around NZ$750. I used this a number of times, which was great apart from the early start.

Then again, 80 SPs for $750 still isn't too bad, when you're probably looking at NZ$1200+ (sale fare; full fare is more like NZ$1600+) for 160 SPs in QF Business class, or NZ$600+ for 80 SPs in Economy Flexible.

This was the first thing I looked at!;)
For me it makes the LAN run uneconomic in terms of cost and travel time as a WLG based QFFer. Then again it has been over 2 years since I last did it as the QF I fare and timings work better for me than the lost time flying LA and to an extent EK via AKL.

Maybe I haven't studied the simplified rules enough, but I think I missed what they do with SCs for QF codes on other OW metal. Specifically QF321 v/s LA800 (same metal). Does QF321 get the full SCs and LA800 only get half?

I think that's right. Australia-South America on LAN in Discount Economy is now 20 Status Credits!

So are you confirming that QF321 gets 40 SCs and LA800 gets 20 SCs (ie same LAN aircraft - just different "sold as" code)? Or in D class, 160 and 80 respectively?

Yes, but the QF codes often cost more for the same flight. in the olden days, buying LA would be fine as SC's would be the same. Now.. not so much.
fair dinkum.

Thanks to the correction (above) re the US domestic flights. I did note the zone changes which I think clearly shows QF has been doing their maths on how this stuff is being used.

Exactly my point. I was being somewhat sarcastic. QF has sold these changes as "simpler" but they are anything BUT... and honestly while WE (the FT types who know our fare buckets and the various reasons to do things like Y-UP fares apart from sitting in "First") know and understand what it's all about.. tell me Joe public would find a mix of domestic and international flights earning tables, that used to be based on the zonal system (for SC earning anyway) that applied no matter where (simpler) vs now you have a mix of international, route by route allocations, and a SEPERATE(different) zonal system for partner flights in the USA (clearly directed at the AA Y-UP crowd almost certainly).

I would have rathered that QF changed the zones, but made it consistent! Make your 0-600, 0-750 for the zone 1 if you like but make it across the board! That would be "fairer" if you ask me, than keeping the domestic zones as they are but having differences per international region

Of course we all know this so I'm not really arguing with anyone here. Just adding my voice to the chorus :)

and no surprise they removed the tables but goodness I hate calculators! Are those tables in the T&C?

I might have missed this in all the fine print (which admittedly I haven't read), but does that JQ bundles will downgrade to 800 FF points and 10 status credits?

I know it's only 200 points, but if you do a lot of trips, it adds up...

SCs depend on the distance, but the minimum points guarantee is 800 for these flights.

It's 20% of the value.

OT-If you are a regular JQ traveller, did you notice how Jetstar has really gone downhill the past month or so? Grumpy sour nickel-and-diming taken to a new level, and heaven help you in Irrops, you'll be stranded somewhere lonely in the middle of the night.

It's taken a few days to digest the changes...I'm looking at this from the assumptions of premium travel and gold/platinum status.

For premium passengers controlling their travel budget and travelling mainly domestically it really is a no brainer. Virgin offers the better scheme:

- Status is easier to get
- Status is easier to retain
- Points can be earned far faster in business class (based on pt per $)
- Platinum comes with 4 complimentary upgrades
- You get Hilton Diamond with Platinum
- You get Herz Presidents Gold with Platinum
- VA based redemptions don't charge the huge amounts in fuel surcharges that QF do
- you can talk to real people (management don't hide from customers)

BUT

IF you want to redeem internationally you can hit problems:

- Forget Air NZ redemptions
- Forget first class SQ redemptions
- No online visibility
etc


IF you travel internationally in business/first you are probably far better off simply getting the best fare on the day on the airline of your choice and buying the points with the money saved into a scheme with flexibility of good redemption rates. As a premium customer you'll get the essential benefits that status earns anyway and still be ahead points wise.

Points can be bought in Australia at $25 per 1000 through Amex and transferred to FF schemes offering so much better value (MH, SQ, CX) - not to mention opportunities to buy inro AA, Avianca etc when on offer.


Blind loyalty to QF (or any other scheme for that matter) is along since gone:

Status - no point if you're on a premium ticket
Points - do the maths and see if being loyal earns you those points at better value than a points purchase


Why strive for QF Platinum etc if those benefits are declining on OW and the writing is one the wall? Unless for whatever reason you have good cause to travel with QF....can't imagine what that would be any more.

And by way of example of the absolute absurdity of QF in these changes:

- where status credits have increased for domestic business class (J class etc) you can't even preferentially buy these on the web site - CLANG!!!
- the future of QFi will probably need to be based on flying to select hubs and relying on others - EK for DXB thence EK, but from HKG, LAX, DFW, etc without the back up in the FF scheme. Doomed to failure.

And if anyone still has any lingering sense that QF has any care in the world for its loyal customers go try being PlatinumOne and enjoy the farcical under delivery and disinterest in upper tier premium customers. What a joke.

Question: I was looking at the QF earnings table with the various "short" "medium" and "long" haul "intra USA" parts which SEEM to roughly match the previous zone structure, though I suspect "short" is now <750mi, medium 750-1500 and long >1500, but are those distances defined anywhere? I couldn't find a reference if they were aligned with the QF zones, or the "USA domestic" distances under the partner table.

I'm thinking of this with reference to QF codeshares ex LAX and DFW - it's unclear if LAX-DFW will be classed as "medium" as it is now (it's just over 1200 miles) or what.

Any ideas? Seems a bit vague to me on what they classify as short/medium/long basically.

I think you might have misunderstood. JQ currently advertises bundles as having 1,000 QFF points and 10 SC.

With the QF minimum now 800 points, does that mean JQ will reduce their bundles to only credit 800 points?

I haven't seen this covered anywhere.

https://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn...rtner-airlines

For non-QF flights within USA,
shorthaul is up to 750 miles

then all other flights applies, that is
751-1500 miles
1501-2500 miles
2501-3500 miles
3501-5000 miles

http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/program/regions

For QF flights within USA,
short is up to 750 miles
(lower) mid is 751-1500 miles
(upper) mid is 1501-2500 miles
longer is 2501-3500 miles
long is 3501-5000 miles

So it looks to me like the zones are aligned between QF and non-QF for intra-USA flights, albeit poorly worded.

from http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/plannin.../qantas-points

From http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/...hanges-to-earn

Starter Plus will classify as Economy
Starter Max will classify as Flexible Economy

According to the table at http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/...tar-earn-table

Economy has a 800 min mileage guarantee
Flexible Economy has a 1200 min mileage guarantee

Any change about the Partner Status Credits in Economy/Flexible Economy?
Until now only Y was Flexible Economy. So any changes with that?

Re Globalisers original table that seemed to have a <250mi class - I take it that this has now disappeared and the "Short Flights <750mi" is the minimum class

No, that was for SC earning on partners by reference to a traditional distance ladder (as opposed to the gerrymandered earning on routes where QF also flies), and is still in place at http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/...rtner-airlines

Last week I emailed what I think about the QFF Changes - especially the earnings on partner flights.

Today I got a call from QFF on my German mobile. The nice guy said that the numbers of complaints are HUGE! So QF may are now analysing the complaints and answering them. He told, that they may review some of the changes!

He looked very deeply into my account and told me that my earnings won't change much in the future. I opposed that he only can look in my past history. I know what I want to book in the future - and there are massive reductions, that of course will influence my decisions!

So QF is actually really reading the complaints! So if you have not done, just write your complaints - it may help!

Hmmm I was just told that the new 750 limit means SYD-ADL (725) will now only earn 10SC instead of 15SC as it is now in the lowest zone. I like ADL as a little SC run, of course SC does not change if you do SYD-MEL-ADL or something like that.

Blackcloud - Correct.

Thanks KF.

Yeah no surprise they've done something and worded it poorly - but it's "simpler"! :D

As for QFF getting heaps of complaints... that's no surprise. Guess what their care factor will be? I feel sorry for the poor front line staff having to bear the ire of irritated and pissed off people. My thought is that many will be from those flying Y and similar.. and no offence intended, but the bean counters could care less.

They may listen if CL and WP/P1 types valued as high yield kicked up a stink, but this is why those folks paying the higher fares are looked after more (obviously). There's not a lot of incentive for your high value CL or P1 to whine unless they are there via lower fares, which would be pretty unusual I would think - given the requirement for P1 is non trivial and CL is invite only.

So basically I'm suggesting QFF will weather the storm and go on with little, if any, changes.

sorry. (but just my opinion)