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-   -   Terrorist at the Gate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/974873-terrorist-gate.html)

ND Sol Jul 16, 2009 7:12 am


Originally Posted by rayraf (Post 12072881)
Ever get stopped at a DUI checkpoint? They rarely catch anyone either but they expend a lot of resources doing so. And they are legal, as long as they are pre-announced.

They are illegal in Texas. And as others pointed out, the stopping can't be arbitrary. Has to be all or some random number depending on the standards set in each state. And some states do require pre-announcements.

And lastly, driving is a privilege and not a right. As such, more constrictions can be placed.

sethb Jul 16, 2009 7:45 am


Originally Posted by DocDorfman (Post 12073962)
The Cell-camera idea is the next step - I watched this time, I am going to take pictures next time. I am simply taking the picture of the sign at the gate announcing the flight.

They are likely to give you a hassle over that.

On the other hand, if you're talking on your cellphone, they don't know which buttons you're hitting.

Yaatri Jul 16, 2009 8:41 am


Originally Posted by DocDorfman (Post 12062176)
I flew OAK - DEN on Sunday, and saw something I had not seen before. It was sort of a passive gate check - 5 TSA screeners stood in various corners of the gate and watched all the passengers, all the while making little "signals" to each other.

It was as if they were a special ops insertion team, sneaking up on the enemy, except it was as obvious as signs the catcher gives to the pitcher.

Stone faced, they stared at the passengers for any suspicious behavior, it was the most amateur effort at playing bounty hunter I could imagine. Two focused on the jetway gate, as if to assure nobody barged it, four stood in opposite corners and scanned the audience.

All wore gloves, and acted as if immediately ready to pounce on the terrorist. Except that immediately after calling the last boarding group, they responded as if the play was over and headed off as a group to the terminal - exactly like an actor might change personality when the scene was over.

Logistically I though it was interesting - unlike the gates, they had no LEO available to address escalating issues. They did not have radio's to call for an LEO and I imagine depend on one of the team to do such in another manner. And a single distraction would cause the house of cards to fall down.

Is this new or am I just noticing?

They were just playing cops and robbers. Makes them feel grown up. Secondary, selective gate check is back, but not for every flight. It has been for a while. On a DTW-DCA flight last year, they set up shop at the gate. I was returning from SIN and had shorts on, although it was a cold time of the year in DTW. I wore a knee brace. As they called the FC boarding, I got up, bracing myself with my hands, and walked leisurely towards the gate, so as not to be the first one to reach the GA. Lucky me. Perfect disguise for a terrorist. Shorts in freezing weather and a conspicuous knee brace. :D

"Sir,, would step over here please?" I was tired and in no mood to play. Against my better judgment, I said "You have got be kidding! Not again! Every time". The TSA lady was in a good mood. "Oh come one! Not every time?" I was calm but annoyed and replied. "Yes, Every time!", shaking my head. She wasn't about to be talked down. She took my shoulder bag, unzipped it, and zipped it back wihout even looking in. I guess they have learnt something.

Boggie Dog Jul 16, 2009 9:26 am


Originally Posted by ND Sol (Post 12075138)
They are illegal in Texas. And as others pointed out, the stopping can't be arbitrary. Has to be all or some random number depending on the standards set in each state. And some states do require pre-announcements.

And lastly, driving is a privilege and not a right. As such, more constrictions can be placed.

According to TSA freely traveling is a privilege and not a right!

Must be something about that word "free" that TSA doesn't like.

AKGrouch Jul 16, 2009 12:13 pm

You also have to remember what TSA really stands for...."Too Stupid for Arby's"!!!

shukris Jul 16, 2009 1:33 pm

I think this is just a new psychological tactic to get people with something to hide to reveal themselves. Personally, I've never had any problems with the TSA despite being a bearded Muslim male. They're always polite.

Customs, on the other hand...actually they're pretty good too. But only after 3 years, when my name was finally cleared off a list.

oldAGE Jul 16, 2009 1:36 pm

OMG! N965VJ... had to close my office door. Made a miserable day much brighter. Thanks! :D


Originally Posted by N965VJ (Post 12065477)
Found on teh interwebz! The source of the TSO hand signals:


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...7/a49699e2.jpg


PoliceStateSurvivor Jul 16, 2009 1:42 pm


Originally Posted by shukris (Post 12077204)
I think this is just a new psychological tactic to get people with something to hide to reveal themselves. Personally, I've never had any problems with the TSA despite being a bearded Muslim male. They're always polite.

Customs, on the other hand...actually they're pretty good too. But only after 3 years, when my name was finally cleared off a list.

Your ability to forgive is very admirable.

halls120 Jul 16, 2009 8:00 pm

Isn't stationing TSO's at departure gates an implicit admission that their security measures at the moat aren't effective?

RadioGirl Jul 16, 2009 8:02 pm


Originally Posted by halls120 (Post 12079014)
Isn't stationing TSO's at departure gates an implicit admission that their security measures at the moat aren't effective?

A logical person would see it that way. TSA's public answer, OTOH, is likely to involve the word "layers." :rolleyes:

Edit: TSA's internal justification is likely to involve the words "job security." ;)

Trollkiller Jul 16, 2009 8:35 pm


Originally Posted by shukris (Post 12077204)
I think this is just a new psychological tactic to get people with something to hide to reveal themselves. Personally, I've never had any problems with the TSA despite being a bearded Muslim male. They're always polite.

Of course they are polite to you, if they give you any hassle you can claim they profiled you.

Duffer2 Jul 17, 2009 2:46 am


Originally Posted by Trollkiller (Post 12079153)
Of course they are polite to you, if they give you any hassle you can claim they profiled you.

If you get SSSS every time you fly out of the US can you claim to be profiled? Is there any redress for non-US citizens?

I think I know why we are subjected to such security - my wife managed to fly to the US on a passport that was in fact cancelled in error by the UKPA a few years ago and now on leaving the US (every single time) we have the manual bag search, gate grope and explosives puffer.

I don't have any great issue with the searches except that they aren't random in any way. I worry that if anybody might be trying to smuggle something untoward aboard then all they need do is go through security as I do when attention will be diverted on a young(ish) white middle-class British couple with no aspirations to create airborne mayhem...

The one thing I will say is that the guys doing the searches tend to be fairly polite, unlike the cretins who check the documents on the way through... If America no longer wishes people to visit could they send an email or something (it's not you, it's me...) rather than try to irritate us into not travelling any more.

Having grown up during a fairly brutal and bitter terrorist campaign in a high-security environment in the UK and overseas I do have respect for the requirements to prevent problems (and lock the stable door long after the horse of course) but this just seems lazy and pointless and leaves a nagging doubt as to the likely efficacy of the measures in place.

Trollkiller Jul 17, 2009 2:54 am


Originally Posted by Duffer2 (Post 12080073)
If you get SSSS every time you fly out of the US can you claim to be profiled? Is there any redress for non-US citizens?

I think I know why we are subjected to such security - my wife managed to fly to the US on a passport that was in fact cancelled in error by the UKPA a few years ago and now on leaving the US (every single time) we have the manual bag search, gate grope and explosives puffer.

I don't have any great issue with the searches except that they aren't random in any way. I worry that if anybody might be trying to smuggle something untoward aboard then all they need do is go through security as I do when attention will be diverted on a young(ish) white middle-class British couple with no aspirations to create airborne mayhem...

The one thing I will say is that the guys doing the searches tend to be fairly polite, unlike the cretins who check the documents on the way through... If America no longer wishes people to visit could they send an email or something (it's not you, it's me...) rather than try to irritate us into not travelling any more.

Having grown up during a fairly brutal and bitter terrorist campaign in a high-security environment in the UK and overseas I do have respect for the requirements to prevent problems (and lock the stable door long after the horse of course) but this just seems lazy and pointless and leaves a nagging doubt as to the likely efficacy of the measures in place.

You admit that there is a "reason" they check every time, so
that would not be a valid claim of profiling.

My suggestion is grow a beard and make your wife wear a burka.

Wally Bird Jul 17, 2009 9:45 am


Originally Posted by Duffer2 (Post 12080073)
If you get SSSS every time you fly out of the US can you claim to be profiled?

Claim to whom ? What you can do is accuse the TSA drone to his/her face of discrimination and watch how they try to deny or wriggle out of it.

Remember this is all just a game of scoring "points". It's not about security.

afCAMEO Jul 17, 2009 10:06 am

Diversionary Tactic
 
Perhaps I'm overthinking this, but maybe they were so obvioous because they were doing covert surveillance on someone and were trying to see if they could scare up a reaction. Nahh, just giving unearned credit.

Duffer2 Jul 20, 2009 5:12 am


Originally Posted by Trollkiller (Post 12080088)
You admit that there is a "reason" they check every time, so
that would not be a valid claim of profiling.

My suggestion is grow a beard and make your wife wear a burka.

It'd be fair enough had the passport in question not been replaced a couple of years ago (at the expense of the UKPA - a clearer admission of guilt you will not find!).

I'm just bored of it. I'm no threat, of this I am sure, but the fella who doesn't get checked because yeat again I am may be.

Perhaps the beard/burka combo is worth trying next time for a laugh :D

N231LA Jul 20, 2009 9:29 am

From TSA manual 1002.456 subsection 2.3a:

Identifying Valuable Items.
A. Hand Signals.
1. Agents shall use selected signals (Section 1002.456) to identify passengers wearing Rolex watches, gold jewelry, diamonds, and other expensive items to allow agents in the screening process to perform a national security despoilment.

sethb Jul 20, 2009 9:31 am


Originally Posted by N231LA (Post 12093352)
From TSA manual 1002.456 subsection 2.3a:

Identifying Valuable Items.
A. Hand Signals.
1. Agents shall use selected signals (Section 1002.456) to identify passengers wearing Rolex watches, gold jewelry, diamonds, and other expensive items to allow agents in the screening process to perform a national security despoilment.

That's classified information you just revealed.

PTravel Jul 20, 2009 10:14 am


Originally Posted by N231LA (Post 12093352)
From TSA manual 1002.456 subsection 2.3a:

Identifying Valuable Items.
A. Hand Signals.
1. Agents shall use selected signals (Section 1002.456) to identify passengers wearing Rolex watches, gold jewelry, diamonds, and other expensive items to allow agents in the screening process to perform a national security despoilment.

What is a "national security despoilment"? Sounds like TSAese for "theft." Since I assume it's not, what in the world is the significance of someone wearing a Rolex? Is the idea that terrorists don't? Or that they do? Or the people who are more well-off are able to afford a lawyer and might sue?

More TSA stupidity.

Wally Bird Jul 20, 2009 10:18 am


Originally Posted by PTravel (Post 12093587)
More TSA stupidity.

Umm.. satire sensor on the blink ?

Boggie Dog Jul 20, 2009 10:37 am


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 12093602)
Umm.. satire sensor on the blink ?

I found it rather entertaining.:p

PTravel Jul 20, 2009 10:51 am


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 12093602)
Umm.. satire sensor on the blink ?

I think it says something (maybe just about me) when over-the-top satire about TSA seems to me plausibly factual. ;)

Boggie Dog Jul 20, 2009 10:57 am


Originally Posted by PTravel (Post 12093770)
I think it says something (maybe just about me) when over-the-top satire about TSA seems to me plausibly factual. ;)

That's why it's so funny, being so close to the truth!

sethb Jul 20, 2009 12:18 pm

I read about one case much like that.

A TSA agent stole from a suitcase. The victim was friends with the local sheriff, who somehow got a tape of the inspection/theft, clearly showing the theft. He filed charges.

The TSA went to the judge and told him that the tape would reveal their "secret" methods of searching suitcases, and they wanted it suppressed. The judge refused to allow it as evidence, and ordered it returned to the TSA. Without it, the crook couldn't be convicted. Nor did the TSA reimburse the victim (since he couldn't get his stuff back from the crook).

Of course, the TSA's claim was nonsense; their "secret" methods were known to at least one crook, who would doubtless be willing to sell them for a very small price.

(Had I been involved, there would have been a copy of the tape on YouTube before the trial, so that the judge would have had no reason to suppress it.)

PoliceStateSurvivor Jul 20, 2009 12:40 pm


Originally Posted by sethb (Post 12094247)
I read about one case much like that.

A TSA agent stole from a suitcase. The victim was friends with the local sheriff, who somehow got a tape of the inspection/theft, clearly showing the theft. He filed charges.

The TSA went to the judge and told him that the tape would reveal their "secret" methods of searching suitcases, and they wanted it suppressed. The judge refused to allow it as evidence, and ordered it returned to the TSA. Without it, the crook couldn't be convicted. Nor did the TSA reimburse the victim (since he couldn't get his stuff back from the crook).

Of course, the TSA's claim was nonsense; their "secret" methods were known to at least one crook, who would doubtless be willing to sell them for a very small price.

(Had I been involved, there would have been a copy of the tape on YouTube before the trial, so that the judge would have had no reason to suppress it.)

So much for TSA's "zero tolerance" for employee theft:rolleyes:.

sethb Jul 20, 2009 1:37 pm


Originally Posted by PoliceStateSurvivor (Post 12094365)
So much for TSA's "zero tolerance" for employee theft:rolleyes:.

They did fire him, after preventing him from being convicted.

NY-FLA Jul 20, 2009 2:29 pm


Originally Posted by sethb (Post 12094247)
I read about one case much like that.

A TSA agent stole from a suitcase. The victim was friends with the local sheriff, who somehow got a tape of the inspection/theft, clearly showing the theft. He filed charges.

The TSA went to the judge and told him that the tape would reveal their "secret" methods of searching suitcases, and they wanted it suppressed. The judge refused to allow it as evidence, and ordered it returned to the TSA. Without it, the crook couldn't be convicted. Nor did the TSA reimburse the victim (since he couldn't get his stuff back from the crook).

Of course, the TSA's claim was nonsense; their "secret" methods were known to at least one crook, who would doubtless be willing to sell them for a very small price.

(Had I been involved, there would have been a copy of the tape on YouTube before the trial, so that the judge would have had no reason to suppress it.)

Source?


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