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-   -   Are We Anymore Secure Than Before? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/892866-we-anymore-secure-than-before.html)

YOWguy Dec 1, 2008 8:53 am


Originally Posted by ralfp (Post 10832874)
That's not begging the question; that's merely "bringing up" or "raising the question". Begging the question is:
  1. p implies q.
  2. Suppose p. Therefore,
  3. q.
Begging the question, in this situation, could be:
  1. Airports and aircraft are not secure if the TSA does not catch all rope.
  2. The TSA did not catch this guy's rope.
  3. OMG!!! Airports and aircraft are not secure.

:D I was thinking along the same lines... the TSA can't even successfully carry out the basics of their job, so they've created a thousand other ways to try and divert our attention.

As for the OP, profiling based on religion etc. is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. What terrorist, knowing the new system (or even today for that matter) is going to come to an American airport dressed as in robes and tell airline and security personnel that he's a devout muslim? It's only an invitation for exactly the kind of racist attention that's advocated in that article.

Lumpy Dec 1, 2008 10:53 am

Read it however you prefer, TSA Dude. I just don't bend over any more.

You?

Spiff Dec 1, 2008 11:01 am

Racist profiling is not necessary and neither is the TSA. Destroy them both!

hobo13 Dec 1, 2008 3:46 pm

Not thanks to the TSA. And I actually told them that once.....

PatrickHenry1775 Dec 1, 2008 5:29 pm


Originally Posted by YOWguy (Post 10837129)
:D I was thinking along the same lines... the TSA can't even successfully carry out the basics of their job, so they've created a thousand other ways to try and divert our attention.

As for the OP, profiling based on religion etc. is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. What terrorist, knowing the new system (or even today for that matter) is going to come to an American airport dressed as in robes and tell airline and security personnel that he's a devout muslim? It's only an invitation for exactly the kind of racist attention that's advocated in that article.

Rather than assigning SSSS and performing secondary screening on American 80 year old grandmothers who do not alarm the WTMD or otherwise seem out of the ordinary, devote extra screening to males under the age of 50 who are from the Middle East or who have traveled to/from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. This sort of extra screening is not profiling based on religion, but rather the most prudent use of screening resources.

ESpen36 Dec 1, 2008 8:05 pm


Originally Posted by PatrickHenry1775 (Post 10839794)
Rather than assigning SSSS and performing secondary screening on American 80 year old grandmothers who do not alarm the WTMD or otherwise seem out of the ordinary, devote extra screening to males under the age of 50 who are from the Middle East or who have traveled to/from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. This sort of extra screening is not profiling based on religion, but rather the most prudent use of screening resources.


Um.....I don't understand this point at all. How is it not profiling to devote extra time to males under 50 who are "from the Middle East?" That, my friend, is profiling based on national/regional origin. I'm always ashamed of my country when I am sitting in my seat and a guy of Middle Eastern descent walks by, his boarding pass scrawled with "SSSS" in huge letters. This poor guy was targeted because of how the id checker perceived his origin. (It's almost as bad as profiling based on religion, but actually, religious profiling isn't supposed to happen because your religion doesn't appear in/on your travel documents, and it is highly illegal for any officers--TSA or otherwise--to ask you about your religion.)


The other thing you mention, screening based on travel patterns (lots of entry stamps to Afghanistan, etc.) is NOT improper profiling. In fact, I think is a legitimate, non-discriminatory way of deciding who needs additional screening.

ralfp Dec 2, 2008 6:38 am


Originally Posted by PatrickHenry1775 (Post 10839794)
Rather than assigning SSSS and performing secondary screening on American 80 year old grandmothers who do not alarm the WTMD or otherwise seem out of the ordinary, devote extra screening to males under the age of 50 who are from the Middle East or who have traveled to/from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. This sort of extra screening is not profiling based on religion, but rather the most prudent use of screening resources.

Given your username, I assume you'd advise death for those men and children. :rolleyes:

Wally Bird Dec 2, 2008 8:56 am

If the primary screening was effective and done properly, nobody would need a secondary unless there is an unresolved WTMD alarm or x-ray item. Nobody needs to be profiled, just thoroughly screened. Of course, that means the No-Fly List would be useless. Oh wait, it already is.

If passenger is not in possession of a credible weapon or a viable explosive, it doesn't matter security-wise who he or she is, where they have been or where they are going; or why.

Valid ID - not important. Criminal - not important. Carrying $$$$ - not important. Drugs - not important (although I'll cede calling a LEO in that case).

ralfp Dec 2, 2008 9:09 am


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 10842873)
If the primary screening was effective and done properly, nobody needs a secondary unless there is an unresolved WTMD alarm or x-ray item. Nobody needs to be profiled, just thoroughly screened. Of course, that means the No-Fly List would be useless. Oh wait, it already is.

There is a lot of merit in the idea of layered security. The thing is that those layers have to be credible, which SSSS is not. If SSSS were implemented on its own it'd be like filtering tap water by removing and distilling one teaspoon from each gallon of dirty water and then mixing it back in. The water is still just as dangerous.


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 10842873)
If passenger is not in possession of a credible weapon or a viable explosive, it doesn't matter security-wise who he or she is, where they have been or where they are going; or why.

Unarmed people can still be a danger in the airport, on the street, or at home. If someone is too dangerous to be allowed to fly, they're too dangerous to take the bus; they should be dealt with regardless. If there is a vulnerability in the "sterile" area, fix it. If there is to be a 'no-fly list', it should not have any US residents on it; the only people on such a list should be people outside the US who present a clear and present danger to the US. The only US citizens on the list are fugitives from justice in countries that don't cooperate (deport, etc.). Even those people should generally be allowed in so that we can prosecute them.

You can't keep dangerous people out of public facilities and off of common carriers. End of story.

Lumpy Dec 5, 2008 10:06 am

IMHO, fugitives from justice include the ones in the white unies who batter our constitution in control of the CP lines at the airports every day.


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