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-   Practical Travel Safety and Security Issues (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues-686/)
-   -   Passport/CBP Question (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/865298-passport-cbp-question.html)

polonius Sep 22, 2008 2:30 am


Originally Posted by ESpen36 (Post 10397655)
Depends on the context. Within the USA, if you are a citizen/resident, travel is a right protected by the Constitution (under most circumstances).

But for foreign travel, you need the permission of the Department of State. By applying successfully for a passport, you receive that permission. So, it is a privilege in that respect. Your passport--and therefore, permission to travel--could be revoked if you violate certain laws, even if you are outside the country when you do so.

Plus, as anybody who watches Law & Order knows, many criminals who make bail are required to surrender their passports in order to prevent flight to a non-extradition country.

The United States, until February of this year, always adhered to the long-established legal concept that travel is a right, not a privilege, and any person who could produce proof of citizenship and meet the other requirements (e.g., fill in an application form, provide photos that meet the requirements, etc.) was entitled to a passport. Naturally, there are exceptions that applied to people awaiting trial, etc., but that is no different than other bail arrangements that might forbid a person from leaving the state, leaving the city or even their own house and being compelled to wear a monitoring device while waiting for trial, but of course the fact that this is true does not imply that being able to leave your house is a "privilege" any more than getting a passport.

Since February, the USA has now claimed that entering the USA is limited to those with passports, and it is also claiming the right to be able to refuse passports. However, I have little doubt that the first time they attempt to do so, they will be taken to court and lose -- the assertion is so obviously unconstitutional I cannot imagine it ever holding up in court.

polonius Sep 22, 2008 2:45 am


Originally Posted by Aldoman (Post 10372026)
Do they actively search for visa overstayers or fugitives? most of the exit controls around the world are established to detain visa over-stayers and people who have a warrant. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't thing that if the airline agent sees a visa overstay, they tattle to the CBP to have him arrested. Then I would say the US has a defacto exit control

I'm not sure where you are getting the info that visa overstayers are routinely arrested -- I have overstayed visas dozens of times. Usually, nobody cares. Sometimes, you get a lecture. A few times, I've gotten a lecture and a small fine. "Arrest" has never even been discussed as a remote possibility.

mauld Sep 22, 2008 5:31 am


Originally Posted by polonius (Post 10404588)
Naturally, there are exceptions that applied to people awaiting trial, etc., but that is no different than other bail arrangements that might forbid a person from leaving the state, leaving the city or even their own house and being compelled to wear a monitoring device while waiting for trial, but of course the fact that this is true does not imply that being able to leave your house is a "privilege" any more than getting a passport.

.

I would assume that someone wearing a 'monitoring device' would set off alarms going through Security. So whether they were traveling domestically, in state or otherwise, they would be required to show some proof of being allowed to travel ?:confused:

goaliemn Sep 22, 2008 7:17 am


Originally Posted by polonius (Post 10404588)
Since February, the USA has now claimed that entering the USA is limited to those with passports, and it is also claiming the right to be able to refuse passports. However, I have little doubt that the first time they attempt to do so, they will be taken to court and lose -- the assertion is so obviously unconstitutional I cannot imagine it ever holding up in court.

The US has always required a passport to enter, except for Canadians, and possibly Mexicans. The border guards on the Canadian border are experienced in checking Canadian citizenship documents, so they were allowed to use them. If you're coming from any other country, a passport was always needed.

The US can deny anyone entry, even if they have a passport, so I don't know if that is new...

Aldoman Sep 22, 2008 7:49 am


Originally Posted by polonius (Post 10404616)
I'm not sure where you are getting the info that visa overstayers are routinely arrested -- I have overstayed visas dozens of times. Usually, nobody cares. Sometimes, you get a lecture. A few times, I've gotten a lecture and a small fine. "Arrest" has never even been discussed as a remote possibility.

I think the proper word I should've used was "detained", not arrested. As for countries that do this routinely at the airport I can think immediately of Japan.

Anyways, the point was that, correct me if I'm wrong, talking specifically about the US, as there are no exit procedures, if the CBP, the Border Patrol or whoever catches you overstaying, you're treated as a potential immigrant, detained, deported and barred from entering the US in some time or not able to use the VWP. I have not seen this happening in US airports because an airline tattled a passenger, therefore there are not even de facto exit procedures in the US.

I don't think the border patrol gives my fellow mexicans just "a lecture" when they enter the US on a tourist visa they overstay and they check their papers at their checkpoints in US highways

polonius Sep 22, 2008 5:38 pm


Originally Posted by goaliemn (Post 10405344)
The US has always required a passport to enter, except for Canadians, and possibly Mexicans. The border guards on the Canadian border are experienced in checking Canadian citizenship documents, so they were allowed to use them. If you're coming from any other country, a passport was always needed.

The US can deny anyone entry, even if they have a passport, so I don't know if that is new...

Yes, but the USA did not require passports of AMERICANS returning to their own country until February of this year. And, as you correctly point out, citizens of a number of other North American countries have been able to visit without passports until recently.

polonius Sep 22, 2008 5:41 pm


Originally Posted by mauld (Post 10404958)
I would assume that someone wearing a 'monitoring device' would set off alarms going through Security. So whether they were traveling domestically, in state or otherwise, they would be required to show some proof of being allowed to travel ?:confused:

Well, if the "monitoring device" is worth anything, it sets off an alarm a long time before the monitoree gets anywhere near a border.

polonius Sep 22, 2008 5:43 pm


Originally Posted by Aldoman (Post 10405491)
I think the proper word I should've used was "detained", not arrested. As for countries that do this routinely at the airport I can think immediately of Japan.

Anyways, the point was that, correct me if I'm wrong, talking specifically about the US, as there are no exit procedures, if the CBP, the Border Patrol or whoever catches you overstaying, you're treated as a potential immigrant, detained, deported and barred from entering the US in some time or not able to use the VWP. I have not seen this happening in US airports because an airline tattled a passenger, therefore there are not even de facto exit procedures in the US.

I don't think the border patrol gives my fellow mexicans just "a lecture" when they enter the US on a tourist visa they overstay and they check their papers at their checkpoints in US highways

Probably right, and yet another reason why Mexico should be pissed off, since I and many, many other US passports holders have worked "informally" in Mexico without suffering any problems.

goaliemn Sep 23, 2008 8:09 am


Originally Posted by polonius (Post 10408746)
Yes, but the USA did not require passports of AMERICANS returning to their own country until February of this year. And, as you correctly point out, citizens of a number of other North American countries have been able to visit without passports until recently.

But, most countries do require you to have a passport to leave, so its kind of a moot point. I don't know if an American could leave the EU without a passport, so one would've been required there before February.


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