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Originally Posted by Bobster
(Post 8656254)
I would argue that it does prevent a hijacking. Because the most difficult part of the terrorist plot is finding the pilots. After you've found the pilots, you will not waste them on a mission where they are likely to get shot down, you would be much smarter to use them on a mission where they can succeed. Therefore, I believe the hijacking scheme is deterred from ever taking place by #4.
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Originally Posted by law dawg
(Post 8656277)
If I was on the team taking over the plane I'd shoot you in the head as soon as you stood up. Or cut your throat.
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Perfect hijacking scenario: sneak weapons past TSA by placing a bottle of water in the bag. They'll confiscate your evian in a second, but not your bomb.
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Originally Posted by Bobster
(Post 8656254)
I would argue that it does prevent a hijacking...
...Therefore, I believe the hijacking scheme is deterred from ever taking place by #4. If you said it was a deterrent I'd have agreed, but that's not what you said. Semantics? Yes. But an important distinction. Regardless, a well-timed hijacking would have taken-over and have the target struck before our military could mobilize and shoot it down. Even IF they succeeded in shooting down the plane before it struck whatever it's target was, those pilots you speak of--and the other terrorists--are still martyrs in the eyes of their brethren. Having acquired control of an airliner, the death of the pax, the fear it will strike in the chicken-hearts, and the further liberties our leaders will try to take away from us as a result = SUCCESS FOR THE TERRORIST. |
Originally Posted by law dawg
(Post 8656277)
If I was on the team taking over the plane I'd shoot you in the head as soon as you stood up. Or cut your throat.
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Also, unless they wanted to make a statement by crashing them into specific sites again like on 9/11, terrorists could easily have a conspriacy to blow up many planes at once through cargo which apparently is not very well regulated.
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I just hate it when terrorists pick on air travel. There are already enough people picking at us, like highway robbery level car rental taxes, late flights, etc. Why can't they pick on buses and boats?
Because I get so annoyed that they are picking on airlines, I won't give anyone any hints or ideas. Hijackings can be done, I think. |
Originally Posted by magiciansampras
(Post 8656329)
I don't think that would matter. Everyone on the plane is thinking their going to die anyway. The only thing in question is whether or not it is done on your terms or theirs.
Like I said earlier, the people most likely to "loop" their thought processes are those who have the greatest expectations. If the reality occurring is massively different than the one the person THOUGHT should be happening, the brain tends to loop. You'll see people do the same action, over and over. The brain is like a 45 record stuck in a groove, skipping. The higher brain function thinking you're talking about is largely inaccessible under massive stress. Thinking you're about to die would largely qualify. |
Originally Posted by law dawg
(Post 8656428)
They won't be thinking at all. They'll be stunned, more than likely.
Like I said earlier, the people most likely to "loop" their thought processes are those who have the greatest expectations. If the reality occurring is massively different than the one the person THOUGHT should be happening, the brain tends to loop. You'll see people do the same action, over and over. The brain is like a 45 record stuck in a groove, skipping. The higher brain function thinking you're talking about is largely inaccessible under massive stress. Thinking you're about to die would largely qualify. |
Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 8655355)
(Does FedEx still allow cargo flight travel privileges to employees?)
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Originally Posted by magiciansampras
(Post 8656437)
Then how do you explain the events on United 93?
They had time to get together, plot and plan, for the more aggressive people to get the others courage up. Then they made their move. But without that time, what do you have? Not a team of people rushing the front, but a bunch of individuals, acting as individuals, without cohesion and without a plan. |
Originally Posted by law dawg
(Post 8656474)
But without that time, what do you have? Not a team of people rushing the front, but a bunch of individuals, acting as individuals, without cohesion and without a plan.
It seems to me that the primary reason we haven't had another terrorist attack is that no one out there has the wherewithal to mount said attack. If I had to guess, I would guess that a) There just aren't that many and b) the other three letter agencies that Bart likes to dis are actually effective and c) we need to accept that it is not possible to be perfectly safe. |
Originally Posted by birdstrike
(Post 8656681)
I tend to believe you. Where do you suggest we go from there? I don't believe we're prepared to put a pair of FAMs on every flight. TSA is unlikely to suddenly become an effective force after 6 years of trying.
It seems to me that the primary reason we haven't had another terrorist attack is that no one out there has the wherewithal to mount said attack. If I had to guess, I would guess that a) There just aren't that many and b) the other three letter agencies that Bart likes to dis are actually effective and c) we need to accept that it is not possible to be perfectly safe. I don't LIKE the fact that we're not as safe as we claim to be. I don't LIKE the fact that most people won't fight back. I want them to fight back! At the end of the day, though, people like to believe the little lies they tell themselves and believe what they want to believe. As for the why? I think all of the above is correct. :( |
Originally Posted by birdstrike
(Post 8656681)
the other three letter agencies that Bart likes to dis are actually effective
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Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 8656854)
Care to elaborate? I'm just curious what you mean, that's all.
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 8585894)
But the critical piece to this occurs when we do discover a false or tampered ID and the actions taken by the airport LEO. And this is where the Boys in the Bureau have a lackadaisical if not somewhat condescending attitude towards airport security. And therein lies the broken link because if the FBI isn't going to get excited, then neither are the airport LEOs.
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 8592046)
Well, let me clarify a few points. I do have a lot of respect for the FBI and do appreciate the professionalism of its special agents. I've worked with numerous FBI special agents on many counterespionage cases and a handful of counterterrorism operations. In some cases, I was genuinely impressed working with certain "street agents" who really taught me a lot. In other cases, I worked with their so-called "elite" agents and was horribly disappointed with their tradecraft and methodology. I'm sure many of them would say the same about my (former) organization.
However, there is an institutional arrogance in the FBI and it sometimes prejudices them when certain information originates from certain jurisdictions. My point is that until the FBI truly opens itself to all sources of information, then the detection of false identification cards at an airport screening checkpoint will be a pointless exercise. This does not mean that there is no intelligence collection value or criminal investigative value and certainly no counterterrorism value in screening passenger ID cards. Far from it! There is a lot of value. You may feel uncomfortable with my criticism of the FBI's arrogance. I base it on years of experience and say it with no disrespect intended. (Wait until you read what I have to say about the Comedians...er, I mean, CIA.) There's a cute little joke that has some ring of truth to it: a contest was held among the various federal agencies and their canine departments. The DEA canine sniffed several bags and successfully alerted on each bag that contained drugs. The ATF dog sniffed several bags and successfully alerted on each bag that contained bombs. The FBI dog humped the DEA dog and then humped the ATF dog. After that, the FBI dog held a press conference hailing its success at detecting drugs and bombs. You can't deny it has been a theme. (Though I don't take the funny story about the canine units as (entirely) part of that :D) |
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