Surrender or Confiscation?
 

One topic that we've gone over on this forum a number of times is whether items at the checkpoint are surrendered or confiscated.

The position of the govt (and screeners here) is that you have a choice.. you can leave the line and put items in your car (if you have it with you), give them to a friend (if they are around) or mail them (if that service is available).

The contrary position is that what happens at the checkpoint is effectively confiscation. Screening is not consistent and it is hard to know in advance what will be prohibited by particular screeners. Given that, you are not really surrendering, you are merely given a choice of whether your time will be confiscated (having to leave the line, take care of your item and rejoin) or your property. This amounts to a form of coercion. The evidence is seen in the number of items that people "surrender." People don't just give their property to the govt because they love the govt, they are giving it up because it is less valuable than their plane ticket, a ticket that could be jeopardy if they have to rejoin one of those interminable lines.

There is another argument for calling it confiscation. In another thread, a screener mentioned that once you "surrender" an item, it becomes the property of the government; you can't get it back. Well, that is clearly confiscation. Leaving one's wallet on the sidewalk does not make it the property of the govt. The TSA has the choice of confiscating the items or forming a lost and found system. The fact that they haven't done the latter clearly makes the transaction a form of confiscation.

Why not take some personal responsibility for your actions? You should know by now that the security lines will be long during certain times of the travel day. Why can you not plan ahead? Ever hear of time management?

As for confiscation, there's a difference between a wallet that's left on the sidewalk and an item that is intentionally turned over to an agent of the government for final disposition. When you turn a prohibited item over to a screener, your actions signify your intent to surrender responsibility for the item by transfering that responsibility to the government (TSA). If the reason you do so is because you don't want to go through the hassle of standing in line again, please refer to my previous comment above about planning ahead and time management.

Clearly TSA has a responsibility of properly explaining your options to you. If a TSA screener fails to do this correctly, then you do have a case of confiscation. Talking about prohibited items such as scissors, most knives, hazardous materials, etc. Illegal weapons and bombs fall under a different situation, but then again, you will be dealing with a state-licensed peace officer rather than a screener in that situation.

I am with Bart on this issue. Passengers are responsible for time management. Some passengers severely limit their options by not allowing adequate time ahead of their flight. "Expect the unexpected" and "be prepared" are two sayings come to mind.

I find it utterly amazing how agents of the government will consistently go out of their way to tell people what their actions mean rather than asking people what their actions mean. When I hand something to someone it does not mean that I am "signifying me intent to transfer responsibility." If you want to know what I intend, ask me. This sort of "coded language" of actions and "implied consent" is nothing more than a tool of coercion.

Of course you are.

The problem is that we are not responsible for your mismanagement. The TSA mismanages time at checkpoints, and it mismanages its authority by arbitrarily banning items that are not on the prohibited items list. If those abuses were curtailed, it would then become an issue of passenger time management. Don't try to pass the buck.

Whirled,

Sorry, you are clearly in the wrong in your responses. There are a number of things that you should be doing to mitigate your experiences at the airport. It appears that you are a novice traveler, so let me give you some advice on enhancing your airport experience.

1. Plan ahead, both for security and timing. For instance, let's say that you are planning on traveling from Miami to Boston on a Friday afternoon 12 months from now. Don't wait until right before the trip to begin developing your airport strategy. Instead, go to the airport each Friday afternoon between now and then. Keep a careful chart of how long the security line is and look for trends in the wait times. That way, you will have a better idea of exactly how to plan your travel. A few weeks before your trip, start going to the airport every day to plan. Look for last-minute changes at security that may affect you. I understand that security time waits can change drastically on a daily basis, so this is something that you must prepare for. Effective time management will greatly increase your chances of making your flight.

2. Interview TSA and security officials ahead of time. The TSA is a large organization, and to expect each employee to understand the different rules and interpret them the same way is just silly. After all, you see a sharpened pencil where I see a potential dagger. By interviewing the TSA employees at your local airport, you will not only earn their trust but also their appreciation for having such an interest in their jobs.

3. Be careful of what you wear. In order to expedite my personal screening process, I remove all my clothes ahead of time and cover myself in saran wrap. Therefore, I have no shoes to remove and am carrying no metal objects.

4. Items are never confiscated at the checkpoints. You always have an option not to fly, so losing grandma's silver tea set, which could be used as a weapon, should not be an issue. Careful implementation of point #2 above should prevent your reaching this stage, however.

As you can see, there are a number of things that you can do to make your trip to the airport an enjoyable one. I hope that you think about some of the strategies that I have suggested and use them in your next flight.

Mike

Words we can all live by! :D

To be truthful you can never really know what it is going to be like at the airport. Most times there is a 5 minute wait. At other times it is a zoo and security is examining everybody and everything for some unexplained reason. And an hour in line is possible. To me the worst case is that you will have some nice quiet time to read at the gate for an extra hour.

Makes me want to puke. Give us a break from your rhetoric.

Give us a break from yours, and I wont have to contemplate you bent over a toilet.

See a lawyer. Your options are to dispose of the item yourself or to surrender the item to the government for disposal. Your inability to manage your time is your problem not ours. The math is pretty simple.

One of the things TSA was looking into was posting peak period waiting times on the internet to help passengers anticipate long waiting times and perhaps plan their travel accordingly. The problem is that it's not a constant factor. For example, for our shift (10:30 am - 7 pm), Saturdays are basically dead. However, for our morning shift (4 am - 1230 pm), it's their busiest day (hence the overlap of shifts). When we come in at 10:30, they're basically wrapping up a busy day for them, and because there are additional screeners available, the passenger load never overwhelms us. There are a couple "howevers." If one of the airlines has a special charter or if there's a big convention in town, then all bets are off and our Saturdays may be like our Sundays which is our busiest day of the week (ironically, Sunday mornings are the slowest day of the week for first shift).

The problem with attempting to post peak period waiting times is that there are too many dynamics involved that would, in the end, frustrate passengers and screeners alike. A standard rule-of-thumb strategy of showing up two hours early is easier.

:D :D

So if we are free to leave the line when they find prohibited items; if I put my mac-11 with 36-round 9mm clips in my carryon, and they find it, I can walk back to my car and put it in my trunk? Great.

Recall what I posted earlier, smart guy: Illegal weapons and bombs fall under a different situation, but then again, you will be dealing with a state-licensed peace officer rather than a screener in that situation.

Well, technically, a MAC-11 isn't illegal. Its just illegal to bring past a checkpoint.. In my state, its legal to have a gun on the "non-sterile" side of the checkpoint. Once you cross the checkpoint, you enter federal territory.

Just being nitpicky ;)

I have gone into a screening line and had to run back to my car before for failing to remember to remove a prohibited item before getting into line. It does happen every now and then.

How so? We go to work, we man the checkpoint, we screen passengers and luggage. No time mismanagement in that.

OK, I'll be nitpicky. You said, " if I put my mac-11 with 36-round 9mm clips in my carryon, and they find it" This means you are already inside the checkpoint and that the weapon was discovered as a result of airport security screening. At this point, my friend, you have violated federal law.

Manage MY time? So when I show up at a peak time and there is ONE line open out of a potential three lines that could be open and I have to wait an extra 20-30 minutes, this is MY failure to manage time properly?

The problem with the lines could be mitigated substantially if the sheeple would stop taking off their belts and tennis shoes every time they go through. Imagine all the time savings that would result if people were told that they didn't have to remove non-profile shoes! Instead, screeners just stand and watch people get undressed unnecessarily.

I shouldn't have to budget an extra hour of my day to deal with this crap. If I fly 2-3x a week, that's an extra 4-6 hours of my life wasted.

Everytime I see someone use the expression "sheeple," I just think of the arrogance and perceived superiority the person using it must have, and pretty much just ignore them as being a rational participant in the process.

So I guess I am not too bothered about how much of your life you waste.

Except when there's a line 100 deep and 2 WTMDs are sitting unused -- but still there's always 3-4 people just standing around, doing nothing.

What incentive does the TSA have to process people quickly? If I wait for 10- minutes or 2 hours, you folks all get paid the same.

People that take their shoes off without even wondering why they do it are sheeple. How else would you describe them?

And I couldn't possibly take seriously anyone who chose your screen name.

Does anybody else see the irony in who's lecturing about "arrogance and perceived superiority"? :rolleyes:

You guys have a head start of years on me. Feel free to point out my shortcomings.. just don't be surprised when I puncture the balloon of hot air that has existed here unchallenged.

Well, given how many Americans are in fact sheeple who fail to question much of anything, and that the term already has an entry in the Wikipedia, I wouldn't be surprised if it became a word in Webster's dictionary in a year or two.

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The mismanagement would be evident if you (collectively) were introspective enough.

Yes, it is hilarious. I'm trying to imagine the depths of insecurity one would have to possess to adopt the name of a prominent government official and a lecturing tone on a message board. :D

Um, there's no racial inference in the term sheeple, regardless what color their wool is.

As for Wikipedia, Wikipedia is definitely more progressive, and if it's a term there, the term may very well make it into a more authoritative dictionary in the future, as the language evolves.

So only racial bigotry is impermissible? Got it.

Homo?

Chickenhawk?

Glad we have someone around to tell us which forms of slurs are and are not acceptible.

How about this entry?

Folks, please stop feeding him.

Yes, you definitely don't want anyone disrupting your status quo. It might require real analysis of the basis of your beliefs. Not a good idea.

The racial chatter is veering dangerously into TOS-violation territory. Return to the topic at hand, please.

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essxjay
FT TS/S moderator

I trust that this chatter includes the expression "sheeple?"

If not, I have a huge problem with that.

Your response is appreciated.

Edited to Note: I have advised the moderator in a Private Message that if "Sheeple" is considered an appropriate expression, compared to the others, my participation in this forum is permanantly terminated, and I will consider this to be a board that openly encourages bigotry.

Bye Bye!

And again, anything that releases you from contemplation of the emptiness of your own collective position is such a relief that it won't even occur to you to defend the rights of others that disagree with you.

All in favor of liberty, as long as only your own point of view is considered. I am sure you will find this thought too threatening to consider.

I think you would agree that if you show up at the airport less than an hour before departure time, then you are pretty much at risk of missing the flight. Most airlines start boarding 20 to 30 minutes before departure time and start calling stand-bys at approximately 10 minutes before departure time. If you reverse it from boarding time to include a reasonable expected time in the line to check-in (if applicable) and security, I think you would agree that it's prudent to plan on being inside the airport ready to stand in line no less than an hour to an hour-and-a-half prior to departure time, depending on several other factors (turning in rental cars, transportation to the departure terminal, etc.) Add in time for unexpected surprises such as the pocketknife you forget was in your carry-on, and I don't see what's so unreasonable about planning ahead. I'm not saying you should show up half a day prior to departure. I am saying that if you think you can rush to the airport within an hour of the scheduled departure time, then you are increasing the risk of getting caught behind a long line either at security or to the ticket counter, being a selectee and having to undergo the full Monty, and having to deal with a prohibited item in your carry-on.

If you travel as frequently as you claim, then you probably ensure that your carry-ons don't have any prohibited items inside. Furthermore, if you travel as often as you claim, then your criticism of infrequent travelers who take longer to process through the walk-thru is invalid because you would accept this as a reality of mass transportation. If not, then you are living in a dream world, my friend.

Failure of your ability to plan ahead does not constitute an emergency for me. Key word here is reasonable planning.

As for lane closures, again, open your eyes. Congress is holding TSA's feet to the fire on the 45,000 screener workforce limit. TSA has repeatedly explained that it needs at least 55,000 to properly man the nation's checkpoints, but it falls on deaf ears. Deal with that reality, friend. We screeners have no choice but to work within the limitations placed upon us.

TSA enforcement has become somewhat more consistent over the last few years, but you never know when a screener will decide an item isn't permitted. Remember the lady who wasn't allowed to take her rolling pin? :rolleyes: THere's no difference between surrender and confiscation. You lose either way, and paranoia wins.

That is your perception. There may be things going on behind the scenes that you arent aware of.

We dont have to be introspective. There are things that go on behind the scenes that affect the checkpoint. Pax might see it as screeners doing nothing but there is a reason.

TSA may require 55,000 screeners if it continues the shoe carnival, treats rolling pins as prohibited items, and is forced to perform selectee screening on large numbers of American travelers. This waste of screener resources is why lines are so long on occasion. Moreover, the cyclical nature of hub operations also results in waits at certain times.