Ok that is frightning to me and way across the line.....as well as the replies by peetah and undercover..... :( Fun is fun but that is way to far....

But why go through the web? If you are in Israel, it's a local call.

I think you are confused. They are offering bigger and firmer breasts instead of Viagra.

Trixie, you might be frightened by the thought of being questioned by Israeli Security, but it would be nothing compared to what your would-be future employer did to one of your fellow teachers.

If I did tell Security in TLV that you had gotten such a package, your baggage would be carefully searched. Not only would it go through the normal scanning but it would be hand-searched as well (just like my hand luggage is searched in the States when I am unlucky enough to get an SSSS).

You would also be wanded -- just like many people are wanded by the TSA daily. Also, you would be questioned. True, this is not done in America -- but it should be. After all of that, you would be allowed to get on the plane.

Compare that to what happened to Kathryn Harrington, a 52-year-old special education teacher from Laurel, Md. She flew to Tampa and presented an unacceptable threat to the safety of aviation by carrying a book with a weighted bookmark.

In Maryland, she was allowed to board but the Tampa TSA was truly on the ball -- they not only found and confiscated the bookmark but called the police and had her charged with carrying a concealed weapon - a first-degree misdemeanor punishable by as much as a year in jail and a $1,000 fine. Florida officials dropped the charge quickly but the TSA took over a month before deciding not to give her a $10,000 civil fine.

So if you think that being questioned in Tel Aviv is "frightening to me and way across the line" you might wonder about your chosen career path and what it does to innocent people.

Pickles, I did make a local phone call to Him but He said that if Punki wants my number she has to go through the website. He wasn't very clear as to why -- something about her being an ex-Marine and thus liable to use language that was unacceptable to Him.

I've gotten the special treatment in Tel Aviv several times. Let me tell you something, the questioning and the multiple searches they performed was a hell of a lot more thorough and professional than any I have ever received at from the TSA perverts at many US airports (including SAT).

After getting "the search" at Tel Aviv, not only did I feel safe, I knew my luggage was physically safe, and that my flight was safe from any hijackers.

My offer to fly you out to Israel to experience it still stands.

On a sort of off note... you know that if you do choose a career as a TSA drone, that you'll be the first line of defense at the airport. Being the first line of defense is like being the soldier at the front of the line leading a platoon into unknown territory, you will be shot and bombed first. If that prospect scares you, then might I suggest a different line of work?

Peetah and Dovster both of your replies further illustrate a violent and threatening meaning to the original post. That is my reason for feeling frightened and the posts crossing the line.... :( as far as it involving another country that was not in anyway my issue with the post....it was the implied threat....

Trixievictoria, you came onto a thread which was fairly light-hearted and started tossing around insults and implications:

"And if someone had replied quickly.....then you would have said they have too much help or they should get back to shoe sniffing or too much time on their hands or the hundred other replies I have seen here".

"I bet you would not have been happy if the Admiral himself answered you....because most of the PITA's here would not be"

"you obviously feel so superior to TSA surely you can figure the answer out yourself"

"Oh and OP? why do you carry a zippo lighter with no lighter fluid anyway? I can guess...but I am curious as to your reply."

Harry Truman once said, "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen." We're not asking you to get out of the kitchen, but if you can't stand the heat I suggest not throwing lit matches onto kindling.

Now that would be the reply I would expect....did any of those replies involve or hint violent retaliation for posts made?


I am sure that ment to be kind and fuzzy.... :( and everyone of those replies made by me were in reference to posts I have seen made in this forum over and over.......toward TSA.

And where, in it, do you find any hint of violent retaliation? If I were to do such a thing (which, of course, would require you coming to the Tel Aviv Meet), it would result in exactly what I said -- a thorough security check.

Unlike what we have to go through everytime we pass through TSA checks, it would be handled intelligently. You would, as I said, have your luggage checked by both machine and by hand (which happens to me in the States quite often) and you would be asked enough questions to satisfy Security that you do not present a threat.

You would not be picked out of line at random and be groped. If you did have something seen as dangerous -- perhaps a small knife -- you would be allowed to mail it home. You would not be subject to a fine.

If you had a weighted bookmark with you, you would be allowed to keep it -- and certainly the police would never be called in because of it.

You would, indeed, learn what thorough security is -- and it is not the expensive joke that the TSA keeps playing on us.

What I don't understand is what dog does trixie have in this fight? (Sorry, bad pun, it's that "poodle" thing again.) If her job is housewife, as she states, then why be the resident apologist for TSA? :confused:

She clearly has no reason to even be in the conversation by virtue of being neither a FF or an employee. Just someone standing on the sidelines ragging on the people in the game I suppose. Well, we all need our hobbies I suppose. :rolleyes:

Trixie has said in other threads that she is a former schoolteacher who has decided to become a TSA screener.

Hopefully, she will (like Bart and several others TSA employees who post here) realize that the official line is not always the right one and not, as some others have, mindlessly side with the TSA when even the slightest bit of common sense will show it to be be in the wrong.

Of course you meant you and the other posters would like to see me get gently wanded.... :rolleyes: My Husband has traveled to your country several times and he assured me that I would not be gently wanded if you did as you said....

LEX-LGA You are right....I agree, and no matter what I say or do...I have taken my knocks here and even when you and I have gone at it...Poodle jokes and all you have never posted any sort of reply of this caliber...for that I respect you ^

....and if that held true to this forum...half the posts on my "Am I qualified to work for TSA" thread would not be there either....and the thread would not have had to be locked due to that fact either....but I guess we ALL need our hobbys....

In spanish that is called Transito...one way....

Actually, Trixie, I meant that I would like you to learn what real security is all about -- and it is not about the TSA farce.

A security check in TLV is done a case-by-case, step-by-step, basis. A 70-year-old Israeli grandmother travelling with her baby grandchildren is not going to get the same degree of questioning (or physical inspection) as a 22-year-old Palestinian male.

Yes, this is profiling. But it is also sensible. If Israeli grandmothers start making suicide attacks and Palestinian males stop, it will be the grandmothers who will be those most closely checked.

If I were to tell Israeli security that you got an unopened package from an Arab man, you would be asked about it. The questioning (done in a public place -- not in a secret interrogation room) would continue until Security believed that the report was probably untrue.

Even then, however, your baggage would be checked by both machine and hand and you would be wanded.

Only if something then showed up would the inspection go any further. If the wanding indicated that you have something hidden in your shirt (and I am not talking about the slight piece of wire in a bra) you would be taken to a private room for a body check.

But I agree that my post contained a threat -- not to you, but to your preconceived notions of what real security entails. Use of screeners' brains is much more important than indiscriminate use of wands.

In an amazing coincidence, two of my inquiries (about different subjects) received the same response and in about the same length of time.

Bear in mind that TSA's "Contact Center" is not run by TSA but by a large contractor: Accenture -- the same company that processed all those thousands of applicants for screener positions in 2002-2003.

Warms the cockles of your heart, don't it? :)

Dovster,
I'm wondering how practical it would be to apply the same methodology here in the US. Most people can't tell the difference between a 22 year old Palestinian male and a Mexican-American one or even someone of Native American, French and African-American descent who was born and raised in Des Moines. My point here is that we Americans are not very good at assessing people's ethnicity based on physical appearances. We think we are, but we're usually guessing wrong more than being right.

The other point is that it seems our concept of "justice" or "fairness" is based on equally screwing over everybody. Don't mean to be flippant or sarcastic with that comment; however, the very first thing most people do whenever they feel they are being singled out is look around at someone who appears to fit the same circumstances and ask, "why aren't you doing to this to him (or her)?" The difference between the US and most other countries is that we're obligated, as a society and by our laws, to answer that question.

My last point is that under our current procedures, regardless of what people think of them, I hear it from passengers of all creeds, ethnicities, religions, sexual preferences, you name it, that we are unfairly discriminating against them, particularly whenever they are selectees. Common question they all ask, "do I look like a terrorist?"

I think if we were to adapt the type of screening methodology you describe, we would be inundated with complaints, lawsuits and accusations of being racists, homophobes, sexists and jackbooted thugs. I mean, we're already getting these sort of complaints as it is now, so what's a few hundred thousand more, eh? :p But that's my point, I think it's politically easier to defend a policy that treats everyone the same, even 90 year old grandmothers, as opposed to singling out certain people based on what a screener may determine as fitting a certain profile. That's the nature of our society.

I think the people who advocate the type of screening you describe (not referring to you but others who would join the bandwagon), do so because they believe this is going to be applied to someone else. The moment they're asked these detailed questions, the first thing they're going to do is lament, "why aren't you doing this to him (or her)?"

It is no easier to tell the difference between a 22-year-old Palestinian male and a 22-year-old Jewish Israeli whose parents or grandparents immigrated to Israel from Yemen or North Africa.

I chose this person for my example because he meets the profiling requirements on all three counts: Age, nationality/religion, and gender. A 22-year-old Jewish Israeli (or American) male will also be profiled, albeit from a less suspicious starting point. So will a 22-year-old Dutch woman.

Understand that everyone is questioned before getting on a flight. I am 59, male, with an obvious American accent but an Israeli passport, an El Al and Arkia frequent flyer, and I will be questioned until Security is satisified that I present no threat. The difference is that they will be satisifed more quickly in my case.

In addition to the profiling elements I mentioned above -- and, indeed, more important then them -- is if something, anything, seems so far out of the usual as to raise suspicions.

A few years ago a black woman, in her late 40's, tried to board El Al in FCO. Her answers rang all kinds of bells with El Al. She told them that she was an American Air Force officer -- a lieutenant colonel -- on duty at the Navy base in Naples, had credentials showing that she was with NATO Intelligence, and that she had no idea of what she would be doing in Israel apart from staying at the Hotel Adiv in Tel Aviv.

A friend of hers who lives in the Galilee was setting up an itinerary for her, she said.

The story sounded so outlandish that El Al Security called the friend at his home to verify it. I know, but I was the friend.

Police may not admit it openly but good ones profile all the time. If a cop spots a man in his 50's hanging around a children's playground, he is apt to start up a "friendly" conversation until he feels comfortable about why the guy is there.

If a black male were to be seen near a predominently white high school, having brief conversations with individual students and then exchanging something with them, the cop would find out if he is selling drugs or merely giving out coupons to a local movie house.

If an Orthodox Jew was seen observing a mosque regularly, the beat copy would find out if he is thinking of converting or has a more sinister motive.
The same would be true of a Moslem near a synagogue.

My UIG (Used Italian Girlfriend) lives in a section of Milan which gets no tourism. Last year, she went into a bank near her home while I waited outside reading an English newspaper. After I was there about 10 minutes, two beat cops (a man-woman team that works together) asked me if they could "help" me. I told them I was waiting for my girlfriend and they continued to chat with me for a few minutes. They moved away a bit but stayed until close she came out of the bank.

Now they know me and we exchange greetings when we meet, but I was unquestionably profiled that first time out.

Bart, you of all people, should have known that everyone is questioned at TLV. Your statement gives me pause to wonder.

Thanks, Dovster, for clarifying.

I was talking about the detailed questions; the follow-up questions that are posed to some people but not others based purely on a screener's personal assessment of an individual. I don't know if it's possible to reach that level of screener discretion in all 450 airports manned by TSA compared to the few in Israel. Call me cynical, but I just don't see how TSA can reach that level given its micromanaging bureaucracy, susceptibility to public and political pressure and the basic belief in our society about "fairness" that I described earlier.

Yes, but you described circumstances which have clearly unusual contrasts. What about the terrorist who is dressed conservatively, is carrying a laptop, is an American Airlines Platinum Club member (or whatever they call it) and even goes as far as mildly complaining about the inconvenience of the security procedures yet complies with them nonetheless? It's tricky trying to break a cover story unless you know specifically how to identify inconsistencies or correctly interpret nervous behavior. It requires a level of skill that, quite frankly, would be better spent in law enforcement or intelligence than at airport security screening.

I hear you about how it should be, and I really don't disagree. I just don't see how it could be accomplished given all the societal and political factors that affect Americans differently than they do other nations. Hate to put it this way, but perhaps if we suffered more frequent terrorist attacks we would change our mindset. But that's a hell of a way to go about it. As you know, Israel has suffered terrorist attacks greater in terms of frequency and poulation percentage than we have in the US which gives Israelis a greater sense of survival.

We're too spoiled in this country to make the connection. Many have already forgotten what it was like on September 11th. Many have returned to the old practice of calling any sense of patriotism and national pride as jingoism and condescending nationalism.

I think this is a matter of screening and training of TSA personnel. I can't believe that Americans are inherently unable to learn to make the kind of judgements that European screeners are trained to make.

I've been wanded, patted down, had my shoulder bag, carryon and checked luggage search (not all on the same trip). I've never felt indignant because I could always understand the reason (even if I felt the reasons- bulky sweater, toothpaste tube in suitcase, etc.- might be a bit silly). I think completely random, rather than targetted, searches and questioning are just a waste of time and resources. This is one of the reasons that I always feel safer flying from Europe to the US than the reverse.

Now here where I say take your own advice.... @:-)

And when you go too far...you admit you went too far...might make your opinions respected more... ^

Am I to presume therefore that you disagree with the statement, "Use of screeners' brains is much more important than indiscriminate use of wands"?

I certainly hope you did not discourage the use of brains when you were a teacher.

Bart, The security officers in TLV are not especially trained to find the 22 year old palestinian in the croud. They are trained to talk to EVERYONE and identify suspicious people by the way they response. They are more afraid of 25 year old American or British girls that met the 22 year old Palestinian male and took a package from him to deliver to his "brother" abroad. They are more afraid from the ones that carryu a bomb without their knowledge, than the terrorists who will try to board the planes (those will be much easier to find...).
So, when you go to check-in, they will ask you the obvious questions - Did you pack your own bags?, Were your bags with you at all times since you packed them? and more. They will take your passport and ask you for personal details that are written there. They are not doing it to get the obvious answers and move on, they wait to hear what are your responses and how you say it. That's the way to pick up the terrorist or the unknowingly courier. AFAIK, most if not all the boms found by Israeli airport security were found by identifying the person carrying it as suspicious rather than going through every suitcase and treating them equally. This is the way they found a British girl in the 80s trying to carry a suitcase given to her by her Arab-origin boyfriendto carry on a LHR-TLV flight.

This system cannot be implemented in the USA or elsewhere in a high capacity airport, Period!. The reason is the volume of passengers. Even in the new terminal in TLV, some flights get delayed on high volume hours from time to time (especially LY flights as all LY passengers in all flights go through the same security line while the rest of the airlines spread over 4 different security lines). These questions take time and most airports/airlines do not have this luxury of extra emplyees and time. Also, most US airports do not have the extra area for such security checks prior to check-in.

No this would be the statement I would disagree with....

Trixie, in that case, that should have been the statement you quoted before citing your disagreement.

Perhaps you are right on both points:

1. You are not "especially interested in seeing thorough security procedures" -- you would much rather rely on indiscriminate wanding a la TSA.

2. I almost certainly would not personally take you to the airport.

So are you saying you went too far? Because in your own words it earns so much more respect ^ to admit you are wrong?
If not for anything else but offering to escort me to the Airport :p

I would not call being searched or wanded by airport personnel indiscriminate if my fellow escort saw fit to whisper to them I was last seen taking a package from an Arab speaking person.
So that would be like comparing Apples and swingsets :rolleyes

No, Trixie, but the last remnants I have of gentlemanly behavior inhibit me from saying why I wouldn't want to escort you to the airport.

I believe the shreds of said behavior were discarded when this was posted to get a laugh....

Oh geez, get a life! Perhaps your plans to join the "Terribly Stupid Attitude" group is the right one for you.

Can't wait to hear you griping about getting your break 3 minutes late as I run through the gauntlet.

You've made your mark here, your sour attitude was highlighted to thousands in a FlyerTalk email today. Happy now? :rolleyes:

You honestly believe a screener workforce of 45,000 can be trained to make those judgments? Ambitious goal but hardly realistic. Look at how poorly we do at consistently following an SOP that's pretty straightforward with very little discretion for judgment calls.

As far as random screenings go, I agree with you 100%. I'm not a big believer in them and I do not enforce it at my checkpoint. Seems like a cruel joke to play after someone goes through all the trouble to pass through the WTMD successfully only to end up being tagged for random secondary screening. However, I beg to differ on random secondary screening of property. I think that's sound practice.

As for the tube of toothpaste, the only thing that comes to mind is what occurs at checked baggage screening rather than passenger screening. If you're talking about passenger screening, then I agree. A screener should be able to identify a tube of toothpaste. However, if you're talking about checked baggage screening, then I partially disagree. The EDS machine alerts on items that have the same physical properties and/or characteristics as explosives, and we have to check out each and every alert. In my little perfect world, we would be able to exercise the same screener discretion at checked baggage as we do at passenger screening. In other words, if it looks like the machine alerted on a tube of toothpaste, then the screener should be able to make an on-screen resolution determination as opposed to a physical inspection to confirm what's already obvious on the screen.

They're making judgements now. I think they should be: 1. selected more carefully; 2. better trained; and 3. better supervised.


If the EDS machine alerts, then it's not a random screening. I'm not going to complain if you want to look in my checked suitcase if I've forgotten not to pack toothpaste in it (although I'd like to be there when you do it; fortunately, this is possible at my local airport). But once that case has passed that screening, I don't expect to find that it's been opened because of a further, random, screening.

Look, I don't want anyone smuggling weapons onto an airplane. It's in my interest for you to do a good job, and I try to be cooperative and pleasant with screeners. But the system is not perfect; the SOP, even if "pretty straightforward" could use some revision; there needs to be more consistency in applying the SOP; and some TSA screeners need more and/or better training to hone their screening skills and to improve their skills in dealing with the public (so that they can defuse, rather than escalate, tense situations).

It is neither disloyal nor uncooperative to point these things out. Please do not confuse (constructively intended) criticism with personal attack, nor attempts at humor with threats.

The new EDS systems they use in TLV these days have large flat screen TVs for every station of a manual baggage screen. When the EDS system alerts on something, the screener gets a full snapshot of the bag on screen, with the shape of the item that gave the alert and it's exact location in the bag. This way, time is saved and the screener does not have to go all over the bag to find that toothpaste.

Yes, agreed. That's my point. We can't even apply a relatively simple SOP consistently in all 450 TSA airports; I don't see how we would consistently apply the type of latitude we're discussing. However, don't confuse this as me opposing such a goal. I'm just pointing out that we're a long way from that goal. I would like to see TSA screeners have much more latitude than we now have.

As for selection, well, it's a pretty extensive process. It's much better than what was used for the private contract screeners (I used to be one), but I will agree with you that it certainly has room for improvement. Still, we're trying to hire more female screeners at San Antonio and from what I've heard, 150 women applied but only one passed the screener assessment process.

As for training, I think the tools are certainly available to have exceptionally well-trained screeners. However, I don't think all of the airports are using those resources wisely. We have monthly classroom instruction, online computer courses and daily updates. We never had these tools as contract screeners. The real issue is supervision, and true leaders understand the long-range benefits of a sound training plan that is executed with emphasis. We don't have that type of leadership at TSA. Most supervisors pay lip service to training rather than ensure it is conducted effectively. Don't know if it's something exclusive to TSA or if this is the nature of any civilian bureaucracy in the federal government.

As for supervision, I agree. NCS Pearson hired the original batch of supervisors and, in my opinion, did a poor job. There are some great supervisors but my experience is much more negative. I have to admit that I scratch my head wondering how some of these folks ever got to be supervisors. However, the reality is that once a person is hired in any bureaucracy that he or she has to work real hard to get fired for incompetence. And I've seen some supervisors try real hard but apparently not hard enough. :p

OK. Then we agree. Your reference to toothpaste threw me off; I didn't know if you were talking about checked baggage screening.

I enjoy this type of discussion. I have my own criticisms of TSA and am pretty open about it. I don't have a problem discussing this with you and do not question your loyalty or patriotism. The problem I have are with those who post negative comments simply to bash TSA for no other reason than because they're so angry over some negative experience they had at an airport checkpoint and refuse to take an objective look at the problem.

I agree with you that some TSA screeners need to work on customer service skills. I think we have a pretty good handle on that here in San Antonio. According to the most recent J.D. Power & Associates report, we ranked number one in customer service for our airport category. I think that's because we have a more mature screener workforce with a significant majority of our employees either retired or former military and/or law enforcement. Many passengers give us feedback and criticize a lot of other airports for not having this level of professionalism and courtesy.

I am not blind that some screeners at some airports get confused and think they are law enforcement officers rather than screeners or believe that the only way to handle a situation is to bully someone rather than act with cool, calm professional demeanor. I don't have a good answer for you on how that can be corrected other than for you, as a paying customer, to put your concerns in writing to the airport FSD, TSA Director Stone and/or your Congressional representative. You are not the enemy (nor are we), and I agree with you that we need to work together against the real enemy. I agree that we need to first clean up our own (TSA) house first.

To Dovster. I had a similar question. I smoke cigars, and asked if it was ok to carry on an EMPTY butane lighter. I waited 5 days for a reply, and got the same answer that you did. CAll them. Well I tried that and after ringing and ringing for what seemed like forever, I was transferred to an outsource company in INDIA. Imaging that, our own government outsourcing federal jobs to India. That sure sets an example. Well, the person who answered said no, not even an empty lighter. Doesn't make any sense at all. You cannot carry butane fuel, so what danger is there in an empty lighter????

Maybe try http://www.TSATravelTips.in

Sad.

If you asked they would have given you a detailed answer -- but only in Hindustani.

(Note: Above statement does not apply to anyone who actually understands Hindustani. If that case, the answer will be provided in Swahili.)

I flew SAN-DCA over Memorial Day weekend, 2004. I had packed my Zippo in my checked luggage. It was empty - it had run dry during my CA stay, and I didn't see any point in refilling it out there.

Needless to say, TSA opened my checked luggage, left a note, and stole my lighter. (I had that lighter almost 25 years, and it came with me to two wars, and I carried it literally HUNDREDS of times in my pocket on board a plane. I called TSA. Nope - can't have it back. Nope - it will be destrpyed in San Diego. Nope - there is no supervisor for you to talk with. Nope - you were never allowed to carry a lighter - even in your checked luggage.)

I think this is my third retelling of this story in various postings - it still galls me what TSA did.

If you want to see what happens with the lack of profiling, run the gaunlet through DTW. America's largest Arab population has the TSA setting the screening devices off at the most sensitive level. I take off my insulin pump (makes it through every international and domestic scan but DTW), my belt (only place I have to do that) and even gum wrapper foil in my pockets.

Yet last week, I picked up a dime in our office and dropped it into my pocket. I don't carry any change in my pockets, so never thought about taking it out after nearly stripping for the DTW TSA. Still.......BEEEEEEP! Full search, barely short of rubber gloved treatment.

I want to register my retina and finger prints along with all of my personal info and get through without this kind of bother.

I know, the "black helicopter" crowd will respond with why we need to be ready to overthrow the US Government (Hell I HATE TSA Peeps, but I'll do anything to get around their low IQ people!) If you're in this group, please check out this web site

Good thing I'm American/Dutch and look it. With a bit more of a tan I think the rubber gloved treatment would have been mandatory from the local TSA Czar.

I wonder why you could not get it back. How sad because it meant a lot to you it was more of a keepsake and treasure than just plain old lighter.

Trixie,

At the time, I was informed by the less-than-helpful TSA phone rep that all items confiscated will be destroyed (after all, apparently I was engaging in some sort of criminal/terrorist activity - and that was her demeanor on the phone). She said it didn't matter what it was (or even if TSA was wrong), if it were confiscated, it will be destroyed. That is why I could not retrieve it.