There are a number of complaints about TSA that I accept as legitimate, and if you look around some of these forums, you'll note that I am willing to discuss them quite openly. You'll also notice that I am willing to offer suggestions, and that I advocate customer rights whenever a screener acts inappropriately.

Complaining about shoes and exaggerating about civil liberties being transgressed is whining. In this one specific case, yes, it exactly reveals my mindset about people who whine about this one minor inconvenience with such hyperbole that it mocks people in the world who truly suffer injustice, tyranny and injustice at the hands of oppressive governments. If you honestly equate airport security screening with these things, then you simply haven't been exposed much to the true horrors that exist in this world. Let's then agree to disagree. I'll keep my comments to myself, laugh at how clueless you are about the evils in this world and continue down my path as you continue down yours.

Fair enough?

I guess I missed the part about our forefathers advocating immigration control when I was in school.

"Millions for defense, not one cent for tribute" was a response to overtures from the Barbary Coast pirates to pay for free passage for ships. The War of 1812 was partly caused as a reaction to British impressment of American sailors. Granted, these are not exactly immigration control, but they are strong national defense policies relating to foreigners interfering with American sovereignty. It is consistent with these response to conclude that the Founding Fathers would not have countenanced a flood of illegal aliens entering across our borders.

It is doubtful that the thought ever crossed their minds because America was encouraging immigration in those days -- the more, the merrier.

It wasn't until the 1850's that the first anti-immigration movement began: The Know-Nothing Party, which was both anti-Catholic and anti-immigrants. The party did not last long.

Indeed, as late as 1885, America proclaimed its welcome to immigrants by having Emma Lazarus' poem, The New Colossus, engraved on the base of the Statue of Liberty:

Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Not so fast.

First of all, the Barbary Coast tribute didn't become an issue until after 1783 when the United States won its independence because, until then, the tributes were paid by the British Crown and then, once the war began, by France. Congress continued paying ransom to the Barbary Coast pirates as was the tradition of the times. John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were the key negotiators sent by Congress to arrange payment. Adams saw it as the cheapest way to get American commerce moving again in the Mediterranean. Jefferson opposed the idea, but he still carried out his duties of negotiating with and arranging for the payment of these tributes to the princes of the Barbary Coast. The United States agreed to pay the various nation-states in amounts that ranged from $80,000 to $650,000 each. However, the US was slow in the delivery of its ransom which led to more kidnappings and attacks on US shipping.

It wasn't until he was President in 1801 that Jefferson finally was able to influence US policy to refuse payment to the Barbary Coast pirates. In so doing, he was forced to reverse his position about having a navy purely for the purpose of coastal defense by creating, funding, building and dispatching a naval force to deal with these pirates militarily. However, his initial actions were mere show-of-force which didn't do much to really influence the various kingdoms and provinces. It wasn't until William Eaton resorted to the highly unconventional practice of leading a band of Arab opposition forces in an effort to overthrow the Pasha Yusuf (a methodology used by today's special operations forces) that resulted in a treaty ending the war. (Hence, "to the shores of Tripoli" that is immortalized in the Marine Hymn.) Even so, the United States still agreed to pay $60,000 to Pasha Yusuf as well as an annual tribute.

Afterwards, a new dey of Algiers again began capturing American merchant ships because the US was falling behind on its payments. President James Madison, in 1805, sent another naval force under the command of Commodore Stephen Decatur that the United States, quite literally at gun point, put an end to the ransom paid to the dey of Algiers and other princes of the Barbary Coast.

Again, this has nothing to do with immigration control. The Barbary Coast tribute was an economic issue that was initially settled through negotiation until it was no longer cost effective.

There is an excellent documentary on the History Channel about the War of 1812. If they don't show it again, you can buy it off the web site.

There are very interesting political parallels with the current situation:

1. The basic reason for going to war with Britain (the seizing of US citizens on the high seas who the Brits claimed were British sailors) had been resolved by negotiation before the war began;

2. Madison, not Bush II, was the first president to declare a pre-emptive war; and,

3. The Battle of Baltimore (resulting in the penning of the Star Spangled Banner after a US victory) started on September 11th.

The US took the declaration of war as an opportunity to attack Canada and burn Ottawa. The Brits returned the favor a couple of years later. What stopped the British attack on Washington and probably saved the US was not the US Army. In the middle of the British attack, there was a rare August hurricane that devastated the British land and naval forces. There was a freak tornado that went right down the Washington Mall and killed more British soldiers than the US forces had killed.

Not really. The jump from objecting to (some) TSA policies to equating that to true injustice elsewhere is one you make, and it is a very convenient way to dispense with answering the points under discussion. But we're not going to see eye to eye on this, so I'll concede. I'm a whiner :o :rolleyes:

Those were legal immigrants, who were processed through Ellis Island. I don't have a problem with legal immigration - my ancestors came over from Ireland, Germany, and what is now the Czech Republic, in addition to Native Americans. We should allow more productive people with useful skills and talents into the U.S., specifically in the sciences and various high techonology fields. But we must stop the flood of undocumented illegal aliens who cross the Rio Grande and then become a burden on various social programs in the U.S. such as education and health care, causing tax increases for those of us legitimately in the economy. To make matters worse, the illegals do not assimilate into American culture, demanding classes, ballots, police services, etc. in their native tongues, as opposed to earlier immigrants who learned English when they were not working. This is the perfect cover for terrorists or garden-variety gangbangers from Central America to enter our country and cause much bigger problems than merely being freeloaders.

Wrong again Dovster. Shintani also aided the pilot. Oh, you overlooked the fact that the islanders threw a luau in honor of the Japanese pilot. Oh yeah, another point, the Japanese military had marked the island for emergency use since the 200 or so Japanese islanders were considered friendly to the Rising Sun. Ignoring the MAGIC files aids the myths about the "friendly" Japanese in WWII.

A national origins quota system was in place until the Immigration Reform Act of 1965 from Sen. Edward Kennedy. Allowing unchecked immigration will only bring grief and the demise of the American culture which many are striving for, namely the Muslims. Imam Siraj Wahhaj, the first Muslim to give the opening prayer to the U.S. Congress, ranted, "In time, this so-called democracy (USA) will crumble and the only thing that will remain will be Islam." Siddiqi, harvard educated and Muslim participant in the 9/11 prayer service for victims at the National Cathedral, fumed in a fatwa in 2003, "As Muslims, we should try and bring a gradual change; we must not forget that Allah's rules have to be established in all lands, and all our efforts should lead to that direction."

The U.S.A. was founded by Western Europeans based on English Common Law and Anglo-Saxon culture. George Washington even stated that immigration should be limited to certain peoples and professions.